03-5-2012 at 1:30 PM

I do wonder if people also realize that the solution of keeping the trial system roughly the same and bringing in new games that dogs of all TP can equally participate in is still going to impact the trial system.<br /> <br /> The only options for that solution would be to have all subsequent new games not award cash (which really means that the new games would NOT be on the same level as the trial system) or to adjust payouts for all games.<br /> <br /> Let's say someone is able to make $500k a day with the current trial system. If a new game comes out that has equal ability for payouts as the trial system, in theory, that person could suddenly be making $1 million a day. That would wreck the economy even further.<br /> <br /> In order to keep that from happening, the payouts of the multiple games would have to be adjusted so that people are still making roughly the same amount playing all games as they were with just trialing. As is, people got very upset when the option to lower payouts in trialing was first suggested, but with the rolling out of new games, it would have to happen in order to keep people from racking up ridiculous amounts of cash per day.<br /> <br /> The only way that multiple games could be released that all stack up payout wise to the current trial system is if huge (HUGE) spending incentives were implemented that motivated players to use their cash on-site instead of hold on to it.<br /> <br /> However, I don't really see that as feasible unless new things were being rolled out in addition to the monthly shop, and it seems like getting things coded and in order is a bit of a challenge every month, so I'm not sure the manpower to accomplish something like that is there.

03-2-2012 at 6:10 PM

Creating TP sections for trials won't take away from capped dogs, lower TP dogs will be able to win some but will still make less money than capped dogs thus keeping their value. Unless things have changed lately how much you make is determined by how many points your dogs scores in a trial which is determined by TP.<br /> <br /> Capped and other high TP dogs will still have their value but low TP dogs will have a fighting chance and offer the ability for their owners to make a little money to save up for that capped dog or their own new line of dogs to bring new blood lines into the game.

03-2-2012 at 8:44 AM

I wasn't saying that was the only reason but I'm not going to really repeat myself ^^;;. <br /> <br /> Basically I thought it would create a better sense of competition between dogs.

03-2-2012 at 6:16 AM

capped dogs are loosing value because they are usually from the same lines, or they are coat's / breed's that people do not like or want.<br /> <br /> Most of the capped dogs i have seen are husky's and GSD's. The GSD's are mostly all from the same lines, or have some of the same lines passing through them. <br /> <br /> What the capped dogs need is more blood, new blood, but that is getting off topic.<br /> <br /> As a newbie it was hard to navigate the site. But i learned, and there are games that i played all the time to get money, and voting to get money.<br /> <br /> Just altering the trial system so a new person can make money makes the site cater only to new people. There are many ways for a new person to make money that doesn't involve trialing.<br /> <br /> I never trialed when i was new, only because I did not see a need in it, yes i would get some money, but I had to spend money to get it, the games and voting I didn't.<br /> <br /> I compete most of my dogs, the foundies included, and it just takes a little more time and searching, but a lot of my foundies have made it to odie level, even if they are not in trial teams. To some it isn't worth the effort, but to some it is.

03-2-2012 at 5:31 AM

I realize that it's not all just for money and that there are boosts. The thing is though, capped dogs are losing value anyways. I've seen capped dogs sell for 9k or something around there. Breeding them doesn't really make any money in selling, only trialing. People are still going to buy them at low prices to get the higher payout. Capped dogs are already losing value regardless of how the trialing works. <br /> <br /> Either way, the change to the trialing system will make me compete non-capped dogs. It's becoming not worth the effort.<br /> <br /> I just thought it would be nice for the newer players to be able to make money by working at trialing. I remember when I was new I didn't touch trialing because I was beaten out a lot. <br /> <br /> I'm feeling a little sickish at the moment so I'll cut this short ^^;. All I'm saying is, is that it's not a bad idea to at least consider and I'd like to hear more opinions on it. I'm not totally against the current 2 options.

03-2-2012 at 5:19 AM

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, at first I really thought it was a good idea, but I have changed my mind.<br /> <br /> What a lot of people don't know, or realize is that even if your dog wins, they get a point in speed or in a TP trained. <br /> <br /> The trialing system is not just about making money, i really don't think people should make any money in it, though that does defeat the purpose, and I know realistically it isn't going to happen. Making money gets you to the trial system.<br /> <br /> But have you really thought about it, you enter your dog against 5 other dogs, the top three get money, the bottom two don't, yes that is true, but that is life. But all 5 dogs get a boost in a skill.<br /> <br /> I am one of those people that happen to love foundies and customs. I love these because they have no blood lines, so they can't have inbreeding or line breeding in them. But because of this, they do not have a high TP. But that's the point. They were not made for TP they were made for blood. <br /> <br /> I have changed my way of thinking of the trialing system, and this has changed my views on how it should work. No matter what, I am making my dog better by trailing, winning is just a perk that goes along with it.<br /> <br /> Yes it does cost money to enter a dog in trials, yes if you enter a lot, you lose a lot, but think what your dog is gaining. You may not think it is much, but think about it, you enter your dog in 4 trials a day, when the trails have all run, you could earn 4 points in speed, or a point in the teeter totter skill, and 3 in another skill.(this is an example) It does not seem like much at the time, but soon you will find your dogs trained TP getting higher, the higher the trained tp is, the better puppies tp wise your dog has. <br /> <br /> The training system is not just about winning money, and i think a lot of people don't realize that. But because of this, I do not feel like the tp tier system would be worth the effort that it would take to make it work, and I think that it would make dogs loose their value. <br />

02-11-2012 at 8:44 AM

I still think it's a little unfair as to say that pretty much all dogs should suck unless they are at or near the cap. We never had this trialing problem because there was a point where we had no capped dogs and people did have more of a fair chance at winning because a huge chunk of dogs were around the same TP and competing against others of similar TP.<br /> <br /> I am a little disheartened at the statement about how feelings should not influence anything. We should be able to take from the logical and from our feelings. This is a game and the feeling on here should be one of "joy" or being "happy". I think people would have more fun if they could trial all their dogs against others in the same section. Right now this issue is creating a rift in some of the players (those with monsters and those without). Why wouldn't the feeling of the players be a factor if the situation is creating a strain with them?<br /> <br /> I also feel that the poll should have been redone now that the numbers are hidden (which the were not before) and add the tier option. It seems like people with monsters and without monsters feel like this is a nice option. <br /> <br /> I see the points you are getting at and I can understand your concerns, I hope you can see our viewpoint as well =). Not only would the tier be more fun in the game, it would resolve some of the tension between your players.<br /> <br /> And hey, wouldn't it be fun if we made it so that drive, speed, height, and weigh and personality all played more of a role when doing tiers? Then it would mean that your dog wouldn't necessarily win every time because its a high TP but an overall good balanced dog. (something crevan mentioned)<br /> <br /> The meaning of TP wouldn't be lost. It would still be a goal to compete in higher TP tiers to earn more money like Ionic has said. <br /> <br /> I think making the game more dynamic could really bring in more players and be more enjoyable =). <br /> <br /> Who else helped decide on this decision? I've only seen Kael and Jack respond but what about the others? I know there's more admins and I don't know if the mods helped at all with it but I'd like to see why they voted against it too if they would be so kind~ =)

02-11-2012 at 8:20 AM

I typed up a long post.. but I rather feel like it would be pointless to post it now.<br /> <br /> I will just say that I agree with Ionic and Jive. (They said everything better than I could!) Their suggestions seem the most logical and would benefit the site as a whole.

02-10-2012 at 9:42 PM

I don't really see this as making any progress, so I'm going to agree to disagree. <br /> <br /> I do hope that something besides the current options up for vote will be taken into consideration though, as many many people are speaking out against them, and have pointed out severe flaws in both.

02-10-2012 at 6:43 PM

I don't think wanting a dog to win trials for the sake of winning trials is a viable reason to create tiers. ^^;<br /> <br /> It may be excluding certain dogs from entering trials on a wildly successful level, but by no means completely from the site.<br /> <br /> I have been randomly entering my customs two at a time in every trial in the past two days and they are nearly Odie. With more care and viewing your opponents currently you can still place, though you will not be on the same level as higher TP dogs, no.<br /> <br /> It excludes certain dogs, but it by no means excludes <i>the users themselves</i> unless they chose to limit themselves by only focusing on low TP dogs.<br /> <br /> Which I feel is an important note, because I disagree that it would be limiting the users in any way, only the dogs in trial system which can be put forward to breeding upwards the next generation and then participating in other events. :)<br /> <br /> The alternative activities would be a good way for users to enjoy and earn whilst building their account and dogs for trialing.<br /> <br /> It may be frustrating but there isn't a legitimate reason to cater for it out of that alone.<br /> <br /> If somehow different features start competing with one another and creating a rift, I would not discourage. I don't see how it could sensibly occur in the first place without deeming all parties involved slightly insane for being upset over something trivial, however. If they are, then I am afraid that is their burden to bear so long as they remain civil to other players whilst being competitive. That is not anything any amount of administrative power can control, it would be assigned to human nature and being competitive.<br /> <br /> Anyone can be competitive about anything and bicker about anything including the collection of most pocket lint, we can only hope they choose not to do so.<br /> <br /> I can understand the TP rift though not the latter. I genuinely feel that reason can be applied to anything and is not a sound supporting argument.<br /> <br /> Though these features would resolve the rift by keeping low TP dogs useful and encourage the demand for high TP dogs per user, both parties would have their purpose since we would intend for these features to consume energy and I would assume users would rather put that energy towards trialing on high TP and low TP can take over for others if they are no longer able to compete in trials well. Both serve essential functions on the team and are equally important, only in different ways. :)<br /> <br /> I am stating that tiers would take a tremendous amount of balance, time, energy, and coding for what I feel are not justifiable reasons listed here. Since inclusiveness and all other pros of the argument can be found in new features with less cons and more general excitement as well as room for creativity.<br /> <br /> In short, I cannot agree until there is an actual valid reason other than a user would like a particular dog to win because it would be very nice for that to happen in order to feel included on a specific subject it does not specialise in.<br /> <br /> I do not consider feelings as being legitimate reasons since there are many different conflicting feelings and feelings can often be unreasonable. I feel structural reason would be the most practical route to look for.<br /> <br /> It will take time to develop a new system, but that is the nature of things. We can only work through things little by little to achieve a balance.<br /> <br /> It would likewise take time to create a tier system and the flaws are significantly worse off as well as taking time away from other projects that could be worked on.<br /> <br /> It is essentially the same as creating an entirely new feature, because we would have to start the entire trial script from scratch, test for crucial bugs, make adjustments based on items such as aviator caps, soldier helmets, etc. It will have bugs, problems to work out, and other things of the like.<br /> <br /> The current flaws that had been listed have not really been addressed either. There have been explanations given, but no actual solutions or ideas of.<br /> <br /> It is very possible for us to resign to agree to disagree that you may not be on board whatsoever, but I hope it can be recognised that I am only stating my reasons as to why the idea is turned down. I am still willing to listen for solutions or adjustments, but debates that can be applied to anything, logical fallacies, lack of solutions, maybes, and whatifs are not likely to change my mind on the subject.<br /> <br /> It may sound a bit on the harsher side, but I am trying to push everyone to take a different approach in thinking and arranging their arguments.<br /> <br /> There needs to be a push to want to buy/train/breed higher TP dogs for Alacrity. I explained my reasons before that the given reason of higher payout would not be enough if scaled and compared to low/mid TP dog in this situation unless we would like to make the low/mid range unreasonable for those participating.<br /> <br /> This post may be somewhat disorganised as I am rather tired and about to retire.

02-10-2012 at 5:57 PM

In response to Kaeli:<br /> <br /> <i>In terms of trialing, they are.<br /> That's the point.<br /> TP is ABOUT trialing. Having a 100 TP dog is not supposed to be as rewarding as having a 1,000 TP dog. That's the long and skinny of it. Lower TP dogs are breeding stepping stones to higher TP dogs, if that's what the breeder wants to pursue. </i><br /> <br /> That doesn't have to be the point is what I'm trying to get at. I think the system would benefit if the trials were changed to be more inclusive rather than exclusive.<br /> <br /> <i>This applies to low TP dogs, too. Creating an unfair advantage for a dog with, say, 5999 TP over a dog with 6001 TP is absurd, in my opinion. If you want higher TP to play with higher TP dogs, breed up to it. That was the entire point of Alacrity's TP system. </i><br /> <br /> Isn't that 'unfair advantage' what is supposed to motivate the person to keep breeding for higher TP dogs? That is the motivation for people who currently have low TP dogs. If your dog is at the bottom of a bracket, you keep breeding until you have dogs at the top of the bracket. It's just divided up so that you don't have 20 people all sitting on top of 1 bracket raking in cash like we do now.<br /> <br /> <i>I don't see any of these people complaining. They have MANY options which don't require a lot of training sessions or time to try and make their "nest egg"; Games, frisbee, beauty contests, lottery, etc. In fact, a lot of newbies get high TP, trained dogs through things like the Pound Project and the Newbie Raffle.<br /> <br /> There is a HUGE learning curve on Ala; this is something we do not deny. The problem isn't really illustrated well with the trial system, though.</i><br /> <br /> Maybe they're probably too busy trying to overcome Ala's steep learning curve to comment in the forums. I don't know how we can expect someone to be able to make solid contributions to this discussion when they are still trying to learn how the site works.<br /> <br /> Pound Project and Newbie Raffle are great places for new folks to get a start, but are they constantly run? I know when I joined, I was delighted to find the Newbie Raffle, only to realize upon visiting the thread that the person running it was on hiatus and it did not open it again for weeks. So yes, if a newbie is fortunate enough to join when these things are actually being run, then that's great. However, there is no guarantee that they always will be consistently open.<br /> <br /> As it is now, I guess if someone played their games every day and just saved their money up without buying any dogs, and sold what training sessions they had, they could eventually make a decent chunk of change. But... that's not really playing the game as it was intended. Additionally, from what I can tell, the payouts from the games have not risen to match the current rate of inflation. $45 for guessing in the number game doesn't go very far. If they were adjusted so that the earnings correlated with the current economy, then yes I'd say that new folks definitely are not at a disadvantage.<br /> <br /> <i>Definitely not. Do you understand how much trialing can take place in 7 weeks? How much money can be made while higher TP dogs are still in training? Not to mention that I can effective compound this problem each and every week if I'm not focusing on a high TP dog. This applies to your response to both my second and third paragraphs. </i><br /> <br /> Right. If payouts are adjusted so that lower TP dogs make significantly less than maxed out higher TP dogs do, this shouldn't be an issue over the trial career of a dog. As it is, Option 1 on the official poll does nothing to slow down capped dogs from earning money. And as someone also mentioned, Option 2 can be negated by only running dogs in the middle levels... and not even bothering with capped dogs anymore.<br /> <br /> <i>Calling honest competition unfair is silly to me. We have the current win-based tier system in place to help combat this, but the fact that there will be better dogs than yours is simply a fact of life. Not everyone can win. That's just the way that life works. </i><br /> <br /> That's just the thing, the current set-up is not honest competition. We have grand-champions competing against backyard-circuit dogs. It's like 21 year olds facing off against 5 year olds in a game of soccer. Would people sit by and say 'this is what's fair" while the 5 year olds get stomped into the dirt? No. I don't understand why it's viewed as acceptable here. I don't believe everyone should win, but I do believe that everyone should be able to compete on a fair playing field. Let the 5 year olds go up against the 5 year olds and the 21 year olds against the 21 year olds.<br /> <br /> --------------------------<br /> <br /> In response to Jackdaw:<br /> <br /> <i>My personal viewpoint is that the tier system can be negated through implement of new activities that do not focus on dog TP, but rather other traits.<br /> <br /> Conformation shows, lure coursing, complete revamp of the beauty system, etc.<br /> <br /> It would actually be more enjoyable for all to participate and give users new goals that are not TP related.</i><br /> <br /> If these things were actually being implemented now or within the next 2 months, I might agree. But who knows when this will be? In the meantime, there is nothing else.<br /> <br /> <i>For a tier system to work, the entry fees would also have to be scaled or static so that low TP dogs will constantly profit.<br /> <br /> If everything can be done on a lower account setting with less training sessions I do not think there would be a financial reason to raise high TP dogs, being it would ultimately be more costly to earn the amount back.<br /> <br /> It would actually make more sense at a certain point simply to sell the training sessions for profit or turn the account into a mass production of lower TP dogs with the use of Prairie dogs and Spring fawns to guarantee wins by capping the bracket (this is assuming we remove the flaw of the trial TP gain which can bump dogs from one tier to another and losing all trials at that point).</i><br /> <br /> The amount a dog can profit in each TP tier just needs to scale accordingly with the tier they're running in. You can make a little cash at the low level, you can make a little more cash at the next level, you can make the most cash in the highest levels. The point is not to make it so that someone running foundies can make as much as someone running a capped dog. The point is to make it so that someone running foundies can still make *something* back. The amounts at the lower levels need to be just enough to motivate the player to want to breed for higher TP to make more cash, but not so much that they are content with the amount they earn at the lower levels. It's all about balance.<br /> <br /> And people do make a lot of money off selling training sessions now. I don't believe it would be much different with TP sectioning. Yes, people will max out brackets. That's why it's important to make sure that the dog is not earning back many times the amount that was put into it -- which I guess is the issue we are facing now with high TP dogs. :)<br /> <br /> I think if the TP gain dogs get from trialing is kept in place, that will serve as a natural 'retirement' for dogs who may be running constantly because they are at the top of a bracket. It'd be one more motivation for people to continue breeding to the cap, and would prevent people from dominating one bracket for eternity.<br /> <br /> <i>Through the explanation the benefit of having high TP dogs under tier would be to make more money at the tier, but it would have to factor in the costs to produce that dog compared to the lower tiers and comparable profits with expenses/time/effort considered.</i><br /> <br /> Right. The profits assigned to the lower tiers should reflect that less effort/time etc. is put into the dogs, but it should still exist in some form.<br /> <br /> <i>All dogs in the low to mid-range of tiers are best retired than trained and will become worthless. Even if the entrants are hidden, if there is a dog that has 499.99 TP + Kitsune in a tier that caps at 500 TP, there is no real point to it.</i><br /> <br /> Isn't that also motivation for breeding higher TP dogs? The whole idea is to breed higher and higher dogs so... dogs in the low to mid-ranges will still have worth as breeders. And couldn't it be made so that if a dog has a TP boosting companion equipped, the system takes that into account and forces that person to compete in the correct bracket they should be in? And... that is assuming that every single dog in the bracket is close to the cap, which may or may not be the actual case in any given scenario.<br /> <br /> <i>Users feel foundation dogs are worthless in trials because in reality they are. They were intended to create new bloodlines and not to win trials. It is the whim of the player that wants to garner wins for them and it is not something that can really be catered to and skewing game balance for pride and preferred gameplay alone, but that is my opinion.</i><br /> <br /> They're only worthless because that is how the current trial system makes them. It's not only foundies that are treated that way, it seems like it's anything below 500TP. Even if the dog may be someone's custom -- something that bones/real-life currency were spent on -- in the trials they are considered garbage.<br /> <br /> <i>In summary, while I think the suggestions for tiers can be valid with a great deal of changes and work, I would see the same effort towards building several new features on Alacrity that do not focus on TP as a more reasonable route and would be more friendly for beginner users still setting up their accounts to trial.<br /> <br /> The pros of creating alternative event outweighs the need for tiers.<br /> <br /> This is not to avoid a problem, because I don't believe there is a problem if higher TP dogs beat lower TP dogs. I think it is the intended nature of the gameplay. It was never meant to cater to low TP dogs to begin with, as a means to push users to buy items, better their account, and train/breed better dogs.</i><br /> <br /> Alternative events would be great if they currently existed, but the major con about them is that there really aren't any yet. And when they are created, then it will be a time before bugs are worked out and the new systems are smoothed out so that they run as intended. Even then, there is a decent possibility that something will have been missed or overlooked that once again leaves a group of players out.<br /> <br /> Also, this is a dog agility sim. It's kind of lame if some dogs can't have a decent run because someone else decided that is what's fair.<br /> <br /> <i>This is again, my own opinion and views that is not intended to attack or put down your own. I would love to hear yours on a reasonable level if it can be concluded that an alternative event would be a bad idea as well as the necessity for low TP dogs to win.</i><br /> <br /> I know that everyone wants to feel like they have a piece of something special, but I can't agree with that when it comes at the cost of others' ability to enjoy the game as well. I don't think it is dumbing down the playing field if trials are changed so that everyone has an opportunity to enjoy the game on all levels. By restricting only certain levels of dogs to be able to succeed in trials, game-play is being restricted to only select groups of people. I don't see how that's fair when the site's features should be equally accessible to everyone. No, I am not saying that low TP dogs should be able to make the same income as high TP dogs, but they should at least be afforded the pleasure of bringing in a few wins just as higher TP dogs are.<br /> <br /> I think it would be frustrating to people to basically be told 'oh you have this type of dog, so you can only do these certain things on the site' while other people with the 'right' dogs can basically do whatever they want. I believe that would create another rift between players. We already have low tp vs. high tp dogs. Do we really need more? Trialers vs. frisbee catchers vs. flyballers vs. beauty contest winners? I guess it sounds sort of silly, but it can happen. :P It's best if all dogs can do all of the things on some level, than only do a few select things.<br /> <br /> The ultimate goal is to get as many users as possible fully engaged with the site. By placing restrictions on which types of dogs can do what, that growth is being discouraged because people are now being sectioned off into dog event types (TP/secondary stats/etc). I don't know if the plan is to allow users to make as much money in other events as people can in trials, but that's something that needs to be taken into consideration too. That could also lead to inflation later on down the line... and then we'll be sitting in debate threads discussing how to fix those new unforeseen issues. :P <br /> <br /> But like you said, it's more enjoyable when everyone is included. Why leave some out?

02-10-2012 at 3:46 PM

My personal viewpoint is that the tier system can be negated through implement of new activities that do not focus on dog TP, but rather other traits.<br /> <br /> Conformation shows, lure coursing, complete revamp of the beauty system, etc.<br /> <br /> It would actually be more enjoyable for all to participate and give users new goals that are not TP related.<br /> <br /> For a tier system to work, the entry fees would also have to be scaled or static so that low TP dogs will constantly profit.<br /> <br /> If everything can be done on a lower account setting with less training sessions I do not think there would be a financial reason to raise high TP dogs, being it would ultimately be more costly to earn the amount back.<br /> <br /> It would actually make more sense at a certain point simply to sell the training sessions for profit or turn the account into a mass production of lower TP dogs with the use of Prairie dogs and Spring fawns to guarantee wins by capping the bracket (this is assuming we remove the flaw of the trial TP gain which can bump dogs from one tier to another and losing all trials at that point).<br /> <br /> Through the explanation the benefit of having high TP dogs under tier would be to make more money at the tier, but it would have to factor in the costs to produce that dog compared to the lower tiers and comparable profits with expenses/time/effort considered.<br /> <br /> All dogs in the low to mid-range of tiers are best retired than trained and will become worthless. Even if the entrants are hidden, if there is a dog that has 499.99 TP + Kitsune in a tier that caps at 500 TP, there is no real point to it.<br /> <br /> Users feel foundation dogs are worthless in trials because in reality they are. They were intended to create new bloodlines and not to win trials. It is the whim of the player that wants to garner wins for them and it is not something that can really be catered to and skewing game balance for pride and preferred gameplay alone, but that is my opinion.<br /> <br /> In summary, while I think the suggestions for tiers can be valid with a great deal of changes and work, I would see the same effort towards building several new features on Alacrity that do not focus on TP as a more reasonable route and would be more friendly for beginner users still setting up their accounts to trial.<br /> <br /> The pros of creating alternative event outweighs the need for tiers.<br /> <br /> This is not to avoid a problem, because I don't believe there is a problem if higher TP dogs beat lower TP dogs. I think it is the intended nature of the gameplay. It was never meant to cater to low TP dogs to begin with, as a means to push users to buy items, better their account, and train/breed better dogs.<br /> <br /> This is again, my own opinion and views that is not intended to attack or put down your own. I would love to hear yours on a reasonable level if it can be concluded that an alternative event would be a bad idea as well as the necessity for low TP dogs to win.<br /> <br /> Edit: Before I forget, to keep the trial system focused and use, it will still be the highest profiting activity on the site. Though the alternate activities can be created in points shop for x amount of points for x amount of money when a balanced conclusion can be reached on it, as well as several unique/existing items to redeem for varying point values. :)<br />

02-10-2012 at 3:45 PM

"From hearing people talk in some of the other threads, lower TP dogs are viewed as absolutely worthless when it comes to trials."<br /> <br /> In terms of trialing, they are. <br /> That's the point. <br /> TP is ABOUT trialing. Having a 100 TP dog is not supposed to be as rewarding as having a 1,000 TP dog. That's the long and skinny of it. Lower TP dogs are breeding stepping stones to higher TP dogs, if that's what the breeder wants to pursue. <br /> <br /> Before we get too carried away on the worth of dogs, let's remember that there's an extensive image system on Ala. The current beauty show set-up doesn't really work, but that's on our list of things to fix. In addition to that, there will be other activities that will focus on things other than TP. Don't forget about frisbee games, either :) <br /> <br /> "Plus, if someone absolutely insisted on running with that 6k TP dog, couldn't they use soldier helmets and aviator caps to help their dog out?"<br /> <br /> This applies to low TP dogs, too. Creating an unfair advantage for a dog with, say, 5999 TP over a dog with 6001 TP is absurd, in my opinion. If you want higher TP to play with higher TP dogs, breed up to it. That was the entire point of Alacrity's TP system. <br /> <br /> "Also, it seems like no consideration is being taken for people who are still trying to get a foot into the game."<br /> <br /> I don't see any of these people complaining. They have MANY options which don't require a lot of training sessions or time to try and make their "nest egg"; Games, frisbee, beauty contests, lottery, etc. In fact, a lot of newbies get high TP, trained dogs through things like the Pound Project and the Newbie Raffle. <br /> <br /> There is a HUGE learning curve on Ala; this is something we do not deny. The problem isn't really illustrated well with the trial system, though. <br /> <br /> "I think that's negated by the fact that lower TP dogs will still make less than higher TP dogs."<br /> <br /> Definitely not. Do you understand how much trialing can take place in 7 weeks? How much money can be made while higher TP dogs are still in training? Not to mention that I can effective compound this problem each and every week if I'm not focusing on a high TP dog. This applies to your response to both my second and third paragraphs. <br /> <br /> "One of the huge reasons that people are trial teaming is because of the unfairness of the current system."<br /> <br /> Calling honest competition unfair is silly to me. We have the current win-based tier system in place to help combat this, but the fact that there will be better dogs than yours is simply a fact of life. Not everyone can win. That's just the way that life works. <br /> <br /> I'm afraid my post is approaching the tl;dr cutoff, so I'm going to let this alone for now. <br />

02-10-2012 at 3:08 PM

"First, and foremost, by creating TP tiers, you create elitism within those tiers. Currently, elitism is site wide with 9k TP dogs being at the top, and this is a natural side effect of competition. However, when you break things into tiers, a dog which would have been moderately valuable could be rendered entirely invaluable. Example? The tier break is at 6000 and you breed a dog with 6001 TP. This is vastly unfair considering the work that goes into training a 6k TP dog."<br /> <br /> Isn't that a motivation for breeding higher levels of dogs as you say in your next paragraph? I would rather have elitism in sections than one giant caste system like there is now. From hearing people talk in some of the other threads, lower TP dogs are viewed as absolutely worthless when it comes to trials. At least with a TP-sectioned system, everyone still has some worth. Plus, if someone absolutely insisted on running with that 6k TP dog, couldn't they use soldier helmets and aviator caps to help their dog out? Like people do who have dogs over the 9k TP mark?<br /> <br /> Also, it seems like no consideration is being taken for people who are still trying to get a foot into the game. Only people with higher TP dogs are able to make money in trials. How is that fair? Being able to max out a dog takes a long time if someone is still trying to get perks and training sessions... then add on top of that they will most likely be losing in trials because all a person can afford in the beginning are cheaper, lower TP dogs.<br /> <br /> "Secondly, by sectioning trials by TP, you remove basically the entire point to breed and train higher TP dogs. If my 1k TP trial dog/team is going to win as much, or more, than my 9k TP dog, then I have no incentive to breed and train a 9k TP dog. This is counter intuitive to the TP system."<br /> <br /> I think that's negated by the fact that lower TP dogs will still make less than higher TP dogs. People are still going to breed higher and higher TP's because they want dogs who can earn more. The goal should be to breed dogs that can run in the highest TP tier since that tier will be the one that rewards the most for wins. Also, if you coupled TP-sectioning with the current Option 1 which limits a person to entering 2 dogs, it would keep people from making too much with teams. One of the huge reasons that people are trial teaming is because of the unfairness of the current system. People have admitted that if they did not team, their dogs would never win OR that they felt bad about steamrolling other users' dogs.<br /> <br /> "Thirdly, and possibly most importantly, trial tiers will cause massive upset in the economy. Consider the time it takes to breed and train a 1k TP dog. I can breed and train a team of three 1k TP dogs in a week (most players might take longer, but that's not really important). Consider, then, that training a 9k TP dog would take me about two months. Trial tiers would first remove my incentive to breed and train a high TP dog, and then I could just mass produce 1k TP dogs to run in the first tier, since they're as assured a win as a 9k dog is currently. This would be HUGE in money making with almost no time or effort. Money milling would be unprecedented."<br /> <br /> People will still be breeding to get dogs that are in the top TP tiers. It would be neat if my foundie was consistently winning trials, but at his level its not really worth it because of the small amount of money he brings in. I'd still be motivated to breed higher TP dogs so that I could run my dogs at higher levels and get better payouts when they won.<br /> <br /> I don't know if you're familiar with the game World of Warcraft, but they have a player versus player system that is divided into ranges. Currently, a player can level from 1 to 85. Players can't compete against other players until they reach level 10 or above, and then the ranges increase by a certain number of levels. It works out quite well in that it keeps level 85s from absolutely murdering say... a level 15. 85s compete against other 85s, then there are ranges below the 'cap' that keep players competing against other players within about 5 levels of each other.

02-10-2012 at 2:42 PM

There are a handful of major points to place in the "Cons" column. <br /> <br /> First, and foremost, by creating TP tiers, you create elitism within those tiers. Currently, elitism is site wide with 9k TP dogs being at the top, and this is a natural side effect of competition. However, when you break things into tiers, a dog which would have been moderately valuable could be rendered entirely invaluable. Example? The tier break is at 6000 and you breed a dog with 6001 TP. This is vastly unfair considering the work that goes into training a 6k TP dog. <br /> <br /> Secondly, by sectioning trials by TP, you remove basically the entire point to breed and train higher TP dogs. If my 1k TP trial dog/team is going to win as much, or more, than my 9k TP dog, then I have no incentive to breed and train a 9k TP dog. This is counter intuitive to the TP system. <br /> <br /> Thirdly, and possibly most importantly, trial tiers will cause massive upset in the economy. Consider the time it takes to breed and train a 1k TP dog. I can breed and train a team of three 1k TP dogs in a week (most players might take longer, but that's not really important). Consider, then, that training a 9k TP dog would take me about two months. Trial tiers would first remove my incentive to breed and train a high TP dog, and then I could just mass produce 1k TP dogs to run in the first tier, since they're as assured a win as a 9k dog is currently. This would be HUGE in money making with almost no time or effort. Money milling would be unprecedented. <br /> <br /> There are other reasons, too, that I know I'm forgetting. These were the biggest problems to me as we had discussed it. <br /> <br /> I apologize if I any of these points are a tad incoherent -- I'm working on about sixteen things at once and I'm not so good at multitasking x.x If you need clarification, please let me know.

02-10-2012 at 2:38 PM

I agree Ionic. :/

02-10-2012 at 2:31 PM

I sorta feel like our opinions got shoved off to the side because they differed from the options being given to us in the other thread. :-/

02-10-2012 at 2:21 PM

What kind of sub options are you reffering too? There wouldn't really be a need for these since everything would fall into TP ranges. (0-300, 300-500, whatever everyone decided.) The categories would no longer be determined by how many wins the dog has. <br /> <br /> "which is an even worse nightmare and would end up with everyone only entering their highest dog for the tier anyway."<br /> <br /> Don't people already do that for the most part? This would just level things out a bit. I think it would also help if you couldn't see the TP of all the dogs entered.

02-10-2012 at 2:19 PM

I don't really see an issue with breaking it down into sub-sections. The dogs are trialing anyway.<br /> <br /> Plus, if people know that they actually stand a chance in the trials, more folks might be encouraged to enter. So participation could increase.<br /> <br /> I know that coding on this site seems to have a rough time, but I think the effort could be worth it.

02-10-2012 at 2:12 PM

Probably because it would mean for every trialing class there would have to be a lot of sub-options, and that's a coding problem. It would also leave dogs at the low and of a tier out to lose all the time unless you make it a gliding tier, i.e dogs from 200 - 400 TP, dogs from 300 - 500 TP etc, which is an even worse nightmare and would end up with everyone only entering their highest dog for the tier anyway. And then winning is completely random unless for speed and drive differences.<br /> <br />