07-27-2011 at 12:52 AM

The original APBT standard was built around dog fighting, hence me stating the gameness in fighting terms.<br /> The UKC also provided guidelines for dog fights.<br /> <br /> I don't see what lure coursing has to do with it... My Lab/GSD mix does lure coursing. And high drive is something wanted in dog fighting dogs. That's part of how they're conditioned and exercised, flirt poles, jennies, treadmills, with an animal tied to the end.<br /> <br /> Terriers are commonly used in dog fighting so I don't see why that's a factor either... Bull Terriers used to be big in dog fighting before the APBT became bigger.<br /> <br /> Again, I know their temperaments are similar... they are terriers.... When they were trying to create what would become the APBT they intentionally added terrier for those characteristics.

07-27-2011 at 12:52 AM

The original APBT standard was built around dog fighting, hence me stating the gameness in fighting terms.<br /> The UKC also provided guidelines for dog fights.<br /> <br /> I don't see what lure coursing has to do with it... My Lab/GSD mix does lure coursing. And high drive is something wanted in dog fighting dogs. That's part of how they're conditioned and exercised, flirt poles, jennies, treadmills, with an animal tied to the end.<br /> <br /> Terriers are commonly used in dog fighting so I don't see why that's a factor either... Bull Terriers used to be big in dog fighting before the APBT became bigger.<br /> <br /> Again, I know their temperaments are similar... they are terriers.... When they were trying to create what would become the APBT they intentionally added terrier for those characteristics.

07-26-2011 at 2:56 PM

While that mey be one loose definition of it, it is not always used in correspondance to fighting. <br /> <br /> The American Pit Bull Terrier is a TERRIER, (and, in fact, the American Hairless Terrier, for example, is described as a "Fearless, Tenacious hunter." Aren't Tenacious and Gameness often seen as synonyns?) It means the dog won't give up, once they are set to a task. Often, people misuse this trait in terriers to turn them into fighting dogs. I have seen Pit Bulls lure course, and they have the same level of drive as the AHTs, Rats, Parson/Jack Russels, etc. Go look at some other terrier standards, do they not have a similar personality? <br /> <br /> Examples from varius UKC standards<br /> <br /> Rat Terrier:<br /> He is a fearless, tenacious hunter with seemingly unlimited energy.<br /> <br /> Border Terrier<br /> They are extremely game when hunting (Hey, I recognize that root word...)<br /> <br /> Jagdterrier<br /> This terrier breed is a clever hunter, unrelenting, tough, and robust. The Jagdterrier is unafraid of the most formidable wild game and very intent in the pursuit of such game...Dash, gameness and pluck are all descriptive of a properly bred Jagdterrier. The Jagdterrier, bred solely by hunters over its existence, has maintained the fearless characteristics of early day den terriers.(Oh look, theres that word again!)<br /> <br /> Shall I continue?

07-26-2011 at 5:52 AM

That is right Nath, you may smack me in the forehead for forgetting.<br /> <br /> Also a lot of Caucasian Ovcharka breeders breed for the most aggressive dogs. Wanting them to be aggressive towards all strangers.<br /> <br /> (I'm also not saying all are human aggressive, but they are similar to Filas in that sense.)

07-26-2011 at 5:43 AM

I agree with most things you've said, Celestial, but I wanted to mention that there's one breed that <i>is</i> human aggressive (at least to strangers) by nature and on purpose. Fila Brasileiros are not disqualified for showing aggression to judges and are commonly aggressive to anyone they don't see as "family." They were bred to - among other things - catch, bite, and hold runaway slaves, so their aversion to biting humans is much less than most dogs', including other guardian breeds.<br /> <br /> They usually won't harm anyone in their family, but they're really not dogs that are meant to show anything but suspicion and, often, outright aggression toward people they don't know.<br /> <br /> Just wanted to toss that out there.<br><br>Edit to add: This is not to say all Fila Brasileiros are human aggressive, nor to say they can't make good family dogs. They make excellent family guardians and will usually not bite anyone they don't know. Didn't want this to come off as "I dislike this breed!"

07-26-2011 at 5:36 AM

I do not believe in "human aggressive" breeds. No breed should be human aggressive/bite without a reason. Even guardian breeds.<br /> <br /> I do not agree with BSL, I think it's the irresponsible owners who needed to be cracked down on. I mean, most cities don't even reinforce their leash laws. I know mine doesn't. <br /> <br /> Targeting a single breed isn't going to stop dog attacks, unless of course you get rid of them all. -_- In the end it's the owner's fault.<br /> <br /> I even get nasty comments about my GSD mix because they're affected by BSL often as well.<br /> <br /> Yes, the APBT has a high tendency to be dog aggressive, dog aggression is a common character of the breed. But someone who bothered doing their research and is responsible could easily keep a dog aggressive dog under control and out of trouble. Avoiding places where other dogs are allowed off leash. They just have to worry about people obeying the laws.<br /> <br /> I for one have 3 dogs that don't get along with other dogs, it's quite easy to move them around, not have fights, and give each of them the attention and exercise needed. It just takes knowhow and experience. <br /> But for me something bad could happen, but people let their dogs run loose out of control.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Vision, <br /> Gameness = continue fighting even when badly wounded and in pain, fighting to the death.<br /> <br /> Also might I add when the UKC first started registering the APBT they had to have won 3 fights in order to be registered.<br /> <br /> Here's the history of the APBT.<br /> http://www.apbt.info/tiki-index.php?page=History+of+the+APBT<br /> <br /> <br /> "The official origin of the breed.<br /> <br /> In 1898, Chauncy Bennet formed the United Kennel Club (UKC), a breed registry aimed solely at the registration and acceptance of Pit Bull Terriers. Chauncey’s own dog, “Ring,” was the first dog registered in the UKC. At that time, when Pit fighting was still widely accepted as a national pastime, the UKC provided registration and fighting guidelines for Pit fighting. Bennet sought to create an organization that would represent the breed as performance dogs. Thus, the American Pit Bull Terrier was born as a breed. At that time the UKC was an elite registry for the APBT. For a Pit Bull to be accepted into the UKC as an American Pit Bull Terrier, the dog had to have won three fights. Years later when dog fighting became illegal, the UKC quickly abandoned its past and became an all breed registry that focuses on the working aspects of dog breeds. The UKC is now the second largest purebred dog registry in the United States, complete with strict bylaws that ban anyone who is convicted of dog fighting. Another registry that was started solely for APBT’s, the American Dog breeders Association was born twelve years after the UKC. The ADBA was started by Guy McCord? who was a close friend of one of the founding fathers of the modern APBT. The ADBA and the UKC are the only true registries of the American Pit Bull Terrier, and both have withstood the test of time."

07-25-2011 at 11:56 PM

i know when buying house insurance, that your premiums go up if you have an aggressive breed (pits, rotties, dobies, even gsds). it's a shame, really. absolutely any dog can become aggressive if not treated with the love and respect they deserve. <br /> <br /> I had a rottweiler for 16 years. She was the sweetest, biggest baby in the world. We even let our toddler cousins and other little kids on the street ride her. Snoopy LOVED it! Truth it, the parents that knew her, trusted her more than most of the teenage babysitters around. She never barked, always wagged her tail and wanted nothing more than to be pet and crawl up in anyone's lap. She even used to carry around my dwarf hamsters in her mouth. (they got slobbery, but were fine. lol). When i took her for walks, some people would literally cross the street when they saw her. One boy actually wet himself. Not to mention the fact that a cop, who had come to MY door when she was outside actually threatened to shoot her if i didn't put her in the house. Really?! You come to my house, when she's outside and threaten her? She was very protective, but only if someone raised their voice or hand to me. And all she was doing when the cop showed up was laying in the grass with her belly up. <br /> <br /> People need to get over the stigma and realize it's not the breed, it's the morons who own them who make them that way. meh.

07-25-2011 at 3:30 PM

Warning, massive paragraph. :3<br /> The pitbull isn't very different from other athletic, muscular breeds. English Mastiffs, which are commonly known as "gentle giants", have a past that is much more bloody than that of pitbulls. The only bloody behavior pits were bred for was dogfighting and bull baiting. The rest was working-type jobs and being the family pet. Mastiffs, according to AKC, "fought beside their masters against the Roman legions with such courage and power as to make a great impression." This means our gentle giants were originally bred to attack people at their master's will. Dogbreedinfo.com says "Caesar brought a pack of Mastiffs to Rome where the dogs were put on display as an arena gladiator and forced to be in fights with human gladiators, lions, bull baiting, bear baiting and in dog to dog combat." That's a lot more blood than what the pit was bred for. But yet, we don't hear of Mastiffs mauling people. Their willingness to attack people to protect their master has not been bred out of them. Dogbreedinfo says the mastiff is "A born guard dog, they rarely bark, but it is in its nature to defend their territory and family, and is more a silent guard rather than a barker." The reason we don't see mastiffs killing people and other dogs is because they have good owners. So many pitbulls have been purposefully abused and poorly bred by an irresponsible few to be mean, unpredictable dogs. The ones we hear about "turning on their owners" were rescues of unknown breeding. Any poorly bred dog can have psycological problems. In fact, I have never seen an aggressive pit, but I have seen more dog- and human-agressive chihuahuas than I can count. The cause is the owners. If the pitbull gets banned, those owners will pick a new "bad boy" dog and ruin that breed, too. The English Mastiff is just as capable of aggression as a pitbull, given its history. It only takes a person training/breeding for aggression to bring it out of the breed. "Pitbull" is a word charged with too much emotion. I think many of us (including me, lol) need to check our emotions as we debate here.

07-25-2011 at 3:27 PM

(Actually, I think you got the spelling right, Dream...)<br /> <br /> I'm really sorry to hear that for your friend.<br /> <br /> And I agree! That's why I posted this as "Aggressive Breeds", not pit bulls. People forget that other dogs can be just as dangerous if not properly cared for and given the right kind of attention and love.

07-25-2011 at 3:24 PM

The only thing that frustrates me, and that people who are very anti-pit bull don't act like they understand it that Pit Bulls aren't the ONLY breed every used for fighting. A lot of Bully breeds, Rotties, Dobermans, even GSD's are as equally agressive, if not sometimes more, as Pitties. It's just the reputation of the Pit Bull being the "bad breed" that blinds people to the fact that ANY dog, in a certain situation, can turn on someone and cause devestating mental, emotional, and physical damagae. <br /> Actually, just recently a close family friend of mine had to put their 4 year old Mini Schnauzer (sorry for spelling) down because he bit her daughter's face.

07-25-2011 at 3:18 PM

That's really cool. I never knew the origins of pit bulls. <br /> <br /> It's really too bad that people have turned those wonderful characteristics of bravery and strength into a horrific fight to the death.<br /> <br /> It's like the gladiators in ancient Rome. They were often enemy soldiers taken from conquered armies, forced to fight to the death - many times with their own comrades - for entertainment.

07-25-2011 at 3:16 PM

Your welcome Mock!

07-25-2011 at 3:15 PM

Thank you for posting the truth Vision =)

07-25-2011 at 3:13 PM

SO continuing with the whole "Pit bulls were not bred to fight argument", an exerpt from the UKC standard, courtesy of UKCdogs.com<br /> <br /> "Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull and terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier’s many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation."<br />