06-14-2011 at 2:27 AM

This debate is QUICKLY getting out of hand. Remember proper etiquette. We do NOT call each other monsters. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs. <br /> <br /> Please conduct yourselves properly, or this debate will have to be closed.

06-14-2011 at 2:06 AM

No, but you are saying that all these people who are killing are horrible monsters. And yet, you are okay with killing them. That technically puts you, and whoever executes them, on their level. That's what I'm saying. And I didn't feel like quoting your entire post because it would make me post even more of a huge wall of text than they already usually are, so I saved some space. And I always have an, attitude, honey. It's who I am. I'm actually holding back quite a bit here.

06-14-2011 at 1:54 AM

that wasn't my entire quote and would you mind being a little more,,, sensative? youre starting to have a lot of attitude with me. and are you saying anyone who is pro-death penalty is a monster???

06-14-2011 at 1:27 AM

"Cervine Diety, you want me to pay attention to that quote???? it's Inaccurate, because you took an eye away from the victim so you get your eye taken away."<br /> <br /> Haha, really? You're saying it's wrong. Yeah, cause I'm more likely to listen to you than to Gandhi. Really? You don't seem to understand the quote. He said it in response to things like this, where if you take someone's eye, then you get your eye taken away. With that logic, the second person is also in the wrong and must be punished as well, then the person after them has to be punished as well and etc. It makes the whole world blind. Seriously, what gives them the right to kill these "monsters"? Nothing. Nothing at all. Those so called monsters are still men. And they still have the right to live. Nobody should be able to take that from them.<br /> <br /> How can I justify letting them live? Very easily. Because I am not a monster. I do not wish for anyone to lose their life at the hands of another person. Because they are still people. No matter what horrible acts they have committed in the past, they are still human beings. They still feel and they still think, and you have no right to take their breath and life away from them. Let them rot in prison until they die of old age. Let them sit the rest of their lives thinking on the horrible acts that they committed. <br /> <br /> “I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”

06-14-2011 at 12:38 AM

carnival kennels, i just feel that maybe youre blind as to how the serial killers i want on death row are monsters. i see them for what they are. Monsters. Giest, thanks for trying. i believe people so against the death penalty are better people, for they can love and fight for such lowlives, i am not one of them and i think thats fine. a criminal who deserves to be on death row is not worth fighting for. Rooster my response to Giest's admittably good idea is that we can force them to take drugs against their will. they Fully understand that drugs would help them but still refuse it. and of course we would all love to be so heroic, but saying it and doing it are very different as im sure you know. id admit that i would never be able to do such a thing, for my dearly departed would mean too much to me for me to be able to just let it go, even if i knew thats what they wanted me to do. Cervine Diety, you want me to pay attention to that quote???? it's Inaccurate, because you took an eye away from the victim so you get your eye taken away. the total loss is two eyes BUT OUT OF FOUR. each still has one eye to see out of. and not really actually??? omg, of course there are people who regret their crimes, i don't want them to die on death row i want the ones who don't and never will to die on death row, why on earth anyone can justify such a monster to continue life with the rest of us is beyound me, take a moment and think and make sure you and i are on the same page because the people i want six feet under are the people who you can barely stand in a room with, the people who are beyound twisted and are only out for themselves, not insane, just twisted, they know what they did is wrong but they dont care whereas an insane person doesn't know what they did was wrong, im not saying one murder im saying Tens of bodies in the morge. it's not just an Eye, it's one twisted diseased eye that needs to be removed for the better good of the entire health system

06-11-2011 at 4:09 PM

I apologize if anything I said was already said. Just woke up, so I'm responding to stuff.<br /> <br /> Karma is a load of bull. Also, Karma isn't a force that can be controlled by humans. If it was Karma, the murderer would be in a hit and run, not put on death row, in an action that is ironic. Death row is not ironic. It's just cruel.<br /> <br /> And I do believe in justice. And justice isn't killing the murderer. I can say if I was killed, I wouldn't want them put on death row. At all. I love how you keep ignoring my very important quote, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."<br /> <br /> "what you fail to realize is is that the people we're talking about executing feel/show No Remorse and say they would do it again."<br /> <br /> Not always, actually. There are plenty of murderers out there who regret what they do, or, after like 20 years in prison, regret their earlier actions.<br /> <br /> "People who kill are not orphans with absolutely no connections. Sometimes, sure, that's the case. But people often forget that by putting a killer to death, they are killing someone's son or daughter, husband or wife, father or mother, boyfriend or girlfriend, sister or brother, cousin, etc. And the family of the killer, though grieved by what their loved one has done, are being forced to experience the same loss as the victim's family even though the only thing -they- are guilty of is being related to them."<br /> <br /> Can I just applaud you for this post? Seriously. This. All of it.<br /> <br /> "i know how heartless this will sound, but im sure the family of the executed are better off."<br /> <br /> You're right. That does sound incredibly heartless. Go tell that straight to the face of a six year old whose beloved father was just put to death. Or the grieving widow.<br /> <br /> "most of the time they're from an highly abusive background as well."<br /> <br /> Haha, not true. This is a huge generalization that is completely false. I mean, what? There are plenty of murderers out there who don't come from abusive backgrounds. Sure, some do, but you can't make generalizations like that. Especially if you aren't going to bother backing it up.<br /> <br /> "#2 that person doesn't belong on earth."<br /> <br /> What?! I'm sorry, what?! Who the hell are you to decide this. You are not god, and you should not try to play god. Neither should the people who are putting these people to death. No one has the right to decide who dies and who lives other than the gods. Sure, the murderers made that choice for the people they killed, but it doesn't make it right to kill that person. Killing them does not bring back the murdered.

06-11-2011 at 2:38 PM

If you're anything like me, Geist and Carni, you'll still be stalking this thread even if you've bowed out :P So, here goes:<br /> <br /> I didn't read all the posts - I skimmed them (short on time here) but the arguments I skimmed over seem pretty valid. I've never been put in a position of "My relative/loved one was murdered and the murderer faces the death penalty." I've never had to deal with this, and I'm so thankful for that. I can imagine, though, that if I was in this situation I would be so torn as to what to do. On the one hand, I'd really want to know that the killer was gone from the earth and couldn't hurt anyone else again. But on the other hand, I've always thought it was beautiful when the victim's family goes and forgives the murderer. In those videos, you can often tell just from body language that the murderer does regret his actions. I think I'd like to be one of the latter people - the kind who forgives. It just seems like the healthier route to take. <br /> <br /> And Geist, I'd never heard of the chemical imbalance in the brain that is thought to cause murderers to kill. If that's truly the case, then I think it's incredible that it's something so "simple" to fix. I say drug 'em with whatever fixes that, and then have them serve their time (whether in prison or a secure mental facility). If they're truly changed people at the end of it, that would be amazing.<br /> <br /> There's still the matter of serial killers who don't have any regret for their actions (you know, the crazy ones, the stuff horror movies are made of). I don't think they'd be fit to be introduced into the general population in a prison - they'd probably do everything possible to establish themselves as someone the other inmates don't want to contend with. I'm not saying kill them (even though that's probably the easiest and cheapest solution), but something needs to happen to keep them away from other inmates - maybe solitary, or even an extremely secure mental facility. Something.<br /> <br /> The death penalty isn't something I'm going to go out and fight (already have my hands full with spay/neuter and animal rights), but it's not something I'm going to adamantly support either.<br /> <br /> So good job - I think you actually managed to change my mind. (It's not easy, so kudos :P)

06-11-2011 at 11:02 AM

Also bowing out. I can't continue this debate as you're not getting what I'm trying to say to you, and I don't like butting my head against a brick wall. I also don't want this to turn into another mudslinging contest.

06-11-2011 at 10:59 AM

You seem to have gleaned over the part where God kills David's son, a child who wasn't guilty of anything.<br /> <br /> But I could go on and on about my thoughts on the Bible, though this isn't the place for it.<br /> <br /> You just said that "to me, they are not human." Serial killers share this opinion/perception of people. Often, they'll feel that their victims deserve to die for one reason or another. Your reason is not any better than theirs, to me. Your hands may not throw the switch, or deliver the injection, but you also condone it, you have dehumanized the individual being killed, and even if you feel regret that the person's family will be in pain, you've stated that you don't really care. That killing the killer is more important than that pain.<br /> <br /> You, in effect, are sharing the exact same outlook on people as some of these killers do. And somehow, it's escaping your notice.<br /> <br /> But clearly, you won't be persuaded, so I'll leave this debate having already made all the points that I care to. Like a killer that can't be rehabilitated, or doesn't "want" treatment, you seem to exhibit the same resistance.<br /> <br /> Even Osama Bin Laden and his terrorists did what they did because they felt they were in the right, that they were defending their beliefs and their country from America, and provoking war. They aren't just a bunch of evil men who do what they do for jollies, or because they like watching people die.<br /> <br /> I'm not saying their attack on the USA was okay, it absolutely wasn't. But death begets death begets death, and it never solves anything except to feed the vulgar hunger for revenge.<br /> <br /> I, for one, will be glad not to be a part of that growing mass grave of people killing and being killed.

06-11-2011 at 10:43 AM

im saying yes i would regret the pain it might cause the families but i would do it no matter what. it's not disregard for emotion and in fact it's the exact opposite of not caring about the fallout. it Is the fallout. it Is the Reaction, the Result of the criminal's actions. as i said before, some people do not belong on this earth. speeding up the process Is necessary if it's deserved and or saves lives. as for you not agreeing with "some people do not belong on earth" My God forgave david because he admit he'd done wrong and regretted it ("i have sinnged against the Lord!!!). that's why God forgave him. so frankly that passage doesn't explain why "some people don't belong on this earth" is wrong. and no i don't have pleasure, however you might be correct when you say i not having all my marbles... i think it's how i value things. my entire life people tell me i don't deserve to live, why? as far as im concerned, it's because they were Sick and Arrogant, not because of my actions i assure you but because they were just horrible people. so i base a lot of things off of whether or not i think they deserve it. i don't take pleasure in it because Horrible things were done to deserve it. you must think it satisfies me just because i have a more accepting view of death then most. i don't regret it, because the criminal sure as hell didn't regret the lives he or she has taken. in my opinion, a criminal fit for execution, is not human in my eyes. and i understand that they sure as hell didn't want execution but there is a Huge difference in between Wanting Help, and wanting retribution, punishment. if they deny their "get out of death free card" (medication) then how badly do you think they doN'T want to die? now of course i know some of them Really Really DoN'T want to deny and refuse help still, if they understand the choice their making then so be it.

06-11-2011 at 10:24 AM

"the families? yes i guess after some thought i would regret causing them grief, but it doesn't change the choice i made."<br /> <br /> Do you mean the decision you've already made to have them put to death, or the family's grief doesn't change it? If the former, <i>you</i> can change your decision. If the latter, well.. Isn't that the line of thinking that's some people are trying to remedy with a lethal injection? Disregard for the emotions of others, the harm caused, not caring about the fallout?<br /> <br /> "the serial killer brought that on his or her self."<br /> <br /> I certainly agree that they brought punishment onto themselves, that I will not contest. It's the punishment I don't agree on. You don't have to rob someone of their lives to punish them. And there's the option of helping them better themselves, make them a healthier individual.<br /> <br /> "#1 they would have died anyway."<br /> <br /> I'm going to die. You're going to die. We're all going to die. Speeding up the process is not necessary.<br /> <br /> "#2 that person doesn't belong on earth."<br /> <br /> In my personal opinion, that is a horrible thing to say and I can't elaborate well without potentially coming off as offensive. I'll try.. delicately.. anyway. You spoke of sin. I'm not religious, but..<br /> <br /> Samual 2<br /> (edited for length, I did not remove or change any of the wording, you can crack open your own Bible and read this for yourself.)<br /> <br /> <font size=1><i>11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of his palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. Now this woman was very attractive. <br /> 11:3 So David sent someone to inquire about the woman. The messenger said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, <u>the wife of Uriah the Hittite?</u>”<br /> 11:4 David sent some messengers to get her. She came to him and he had sexual relations with her. Then she returned to her home. The woman conceived and then sent word to David saying, “I’m pregnant.”<br /> 11:6 So David sent a message to Joab that said, “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” So Joab sent Uriah to David. <br /> 11:7 When Uriah came to him, David asked about how Joab and the army were doing and how the campaign was going. <br /> 11:8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your home and relax.” When Uriah left the palace, the king sent a gift to him. <br /> 11:9 But Uriah stayed at the door of the palace with all the servants of his lord. He did not go down to his house.<br /> 11:10 So they informed David, “Uriah has not gone down to his house.” So David said to Uriah, “Haven’t you just arrived from a journey? Why haven’t you gone down to your house?” <br /> 11:11 Uriah replied to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah reside in temporary shelters, and my lord Joab and my lord’s soldiers are camping in the open field. Should I go to my house to eat and drink and have marital relations with my wife? As surely as you are alive, I will not do this thing!” <br /> 11:12 So David said to Uriah, “Stay here another day. Tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah stayed in Jerusalem both that day and the following one. <br /> 11:13 Then David summoned him. He ate and drank with him, and got him drunk. But in the evening he went out to sleep on his bed with the servants of his lord; he did not go down to his own house.<br /> 11:14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In the letter he wrote: “Station Uriah in the thick of the battle and then withdraw from him so he will be cut down and killed.”<br /> 11:16 So as Joab kept watch on the city, he stationed Uriah at the place where he knew the best enemy soldiers were. <br /> 11:17 When the men of the city came out and fought with Joab, some of David’s soldiers 20 fell in battle. <u>Uriah the Hittite also died.</u><br /> ----<br /> 11:26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband Uriah was dead, she mourned for him.<br /> 11:27 When the time of mourning passed, David had her brought to his palace. She became his wife and she bore him a son. But what David had done upset the Lord.<br /> ----<br /> 12:13 Then David exclaimed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord!” Nathan replied to David, “Yes, and the Lord has forgiven your sin. You are not going to die. <br /> 12:14 Nonetheless, because you have treated the Lord with such contempt 26 in this matter, the son who has been born to you will certainly die.”</font></i><br /> <br /> By your logic, David shouldn't be allowed to walk the earth. And he should be put to death. However, the god that you believe in forgave him. He just kinda wiped his son out in the process, which is fairly monstrous in itself, but regardless. How is a murderer, who plots his crime in advance for selfish gain and no regard for the people he'll hurt any different from today's cold-hearted murderers?<br /> <br /> "if a grieving family and some bloodshed on my governments hands is the price to pay, i'll pay it no hesitation. i can live with that for the rest of my life."<br /> <br /> I am really not trying to attack you or be rude. A grieving family, not having the blood personally on your hands, exhibiting no regret. I've studied killers for years and years and you would be surprised how many think like this. They're dehumanized to you, just as a murderer's victims are. You don't regret their deaths, and judging by previous posts, it seems as though you would get pleasure (satisfaction) at their deaths. This is fairly chilling and I would gently advise some very careful introspection.<br /> <br /> "as for you're medicate the high testosterone and low seritonin and dopamine levels::: they don't want it, they admit they would do it again, and it doesn't change anything. i know depressed and hostile people too, but they got help. they wanted help. we can't medicate them against their will."<br /> <br /> The catch is, it has the potential to result in change. As for not wanting it, I bet they don't want a lethal injection, either. Which do you think they would choose, between the two?

06-11-2011 at 9:49 AM

I'm afraid I just can't agree with you.<br /> <br /> Even with Osama Bin Laden, I didn't rejoice in his death. Yes, he needed to be captured and all modes of communication with his terrorist groups severed, but I don't condone his death.<br /> <br /> "Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that." MLK Jr.

06-11-2011 at 9:36 AM

we are obviously not on the same page when it comes to psychotic killers. if they are Truly Delusional, they are diagnosed by a psychiatrist. if the psychiatrist says this person totally understands what they did and doesn't regret it and doesn't care and will do it again and is not clinically insane is the kind of person who needs to be executed. in such cases of course psychiatrists are called into to say is this person Really Delusional? or Twisted, and not insane? im not saying delusional patients deserve execution God no, im saying a person who a psychiatrists declares Not Insane, just insanely Twisted needs to be executed

06-11-2011 at 9:34 AM

"Meredith, you're right, that does sound, and is, completely heartless." Thank you. i appreciate someone who doesn't sugar coat, bluntness wastes less time. Life's Cruel. i accept that. and i never said the families didn't have the right to love them, of course they do. and just because i believe the criminal doesn't deserve that love doesn't mean im not thankful for it because i am fully awear(sp?) of how much worse they could have become without said love. but do they appreciate said love? do they even acknowledge it? i know i don't have the right to say they don't deserve love. but i'll say it anyway. how many times did i say if they don't understand that what they did was wrong because of a mental disability of course they shouldn't be sent to execution, if they understand but Don't Care then that's Twisted. and we can't Force them to take medication. their lawyers (defense attorneys) always go for the insanity plea and tell the client if they agree to take meds they can avoid being executed, they don't care. as for that to kill a killer makes you a killer,,, it doesn't make us hippocrites. it makes us do what as we see best for Everyone involved. what about the killer of Osama? i'd bet you weren't exactly sad when you heard that news? because certain people don't belong on this earth, they need to die one way or another, it's taking care of what needs to be done and no it's not pretty.

06-11-2011 at 9:20 AM

Meredith, you're right, that does sound, and is, completely heartless.<br /> <br /> Also, two of the worst known serial killers did not come from abusive homes. Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy came from well-to-do, church-going families, who did not physically or emotionally abuse either of them.<br /> <br /> The same can be said for many people who kill. They are often psychologically ill, and in need of medication and therapy. As abhorent as their actions are, and as much as you or others may not feel like they deserved the love of their families, imagine how much worse they might have been if they did -not- have that love to begin with. And I don't think it should be up to someone else to decide if a person deserves that love. Maybe they don't deserve -your- love, or -my- love, but their families have every right to love them and want them to stay alive, holding out the hope that they can become better people who truly regret their actions.<br /> <br /> If you actually research the people who are guilty of murder, they are all over the spectrum. Some come from wealthy families, such as the pair of brothers who decided to kill their wealthy parents, and had not been abused or neglected into doing so. Killers come from all walks of life, and while some have been abused as children and become killers, those are actually in the minority. If that were a telling element in all killers, you might as well write off every single person who's had an abusive past.<br /> <br /> I would strongly advice you actually do some research about serial killers, and look at case studies, where available, of criminals. And some killers become what they are -because- they never felt loved or nurtured, or were surrounded from the time they were born in an environment full of killings, drive-bys, drug deals, etc. etc.<br /> <br /> To kill a killer, as far as I'm concerned, is just to be a killer, yourself. They are still human beings with pasts, loved ones, both fond and negative memories, and I feel they deserve to live with the things they've done.<br /> <br /> And, you're right on one count. Not everyone who kills is mentally healthy enough to make the decision to be a better person. Many of them are afraid of what it would do to them, or make them think they're not in control of their own minds anymore. They are often paranoid and delusional, and are suffering from psychosis that does not allow them to give consent to treatment. But, if they are in prison, or a treatment facility, for life, then they are not a threat to society.

06-11-2011 at 9:09 AM

the families? yes i guess after some thought i would regret causing them grief, but it doesn't change the choice i made. the serial killer brought that on his or her self. more consideration and perhaps the family wouldn't be picking out a coffin. the other ways i look at include: #1 they would have died anyway. #2 that person doesn't belong on earth. #3 if a grieving family and some bloodshed on my governments hands is the price to pay, i'll pay it no hesitation. i can live with that for the rest of my life. <br /> <br /> as for you're medicate the high testosterone and low seritonin and dopamine levels::: they don't want it, they admit they would do it again, and it doesn't change anything. i know depressed and hostile people too, but they got help. they wanted help. we can't medicate them against their will.

06-11-2011 at 9:00 AM

What I said stands for all killers. The serial variety included.<br /> <br /> Also, what Carni said. Lionel Dahmer cared about his son. Ted Bundy's grandparents loved him.<br /> <br /> The crimes they committed were atrocities, they were not good people by any means, but would you inflict similar on their families? What if they would have been helped, with proper treatment? Their families wouldn't have had to've gone through losing them, and they could have learned to regret their actions and might have been penitent. <br /> <br /> Studies have also shown that many serial killers have too high testosterone and too little serotonin and dopamine in their systems. Do you know how easy that is to fix? Some medication to fix the excesses and deficiencies, some therapy, and, well..<br /> <br /> Good chance you've got a very different person. But hey, go ahead, have them ride the lightning for the sake of a warped justice system.<br /> <br /> Also it's kinda handy to have some serial killers around to study them and learn from them to try to prevent it in the future. We've still got Charles Manson around, who's used for that purpose.

06-11-2011 at 8:50 AM

inno, so where exactly do you stand? and carnival, i know how heartless this will sound, but im sure the family of the executed are better off. it's nice that they have the ability to love someone who is capable of unimaginable things, but in the end, the executed didn't really deserve any of that love. besides, how i look at it is: we all die anyway. now i already know how extremely heartless that makes me sound, but i just don't have much sympathy for people who deserve the death penalty. most of the time they're from an highly abusive background as well.

06-11-2011 at 8:42 AM

I already made my side of the debate in the other thread, but I did want to add something.<br /> <br /> People who kill are not orphans with absolutely no connections. Sometimes, sure, that's the case. But people often forget that by putting a killer to death, they are killing someone's son or daughter, husband or wife, father or mother, boyfriend or girlfriend, sister or brother, cousin, etc. And the family of the killer, though grieved by what their loved one has done, are being forced to experience the same loss as the victim's family even though the only thing -they- are guilty of is being related to them.<br /> <br /> It's just more pain piled on top of more pain, and I just can't consider that justice.

06-11-2011 at 8:36 AM

I think the 'closure' people get from having a killer put to death is the fact they don't have to think about them, worry about them killing again(because who knows, they could break out of jail and attack again), and it just makes people feel safer knowing that they don't need to worry about that one person that harassed the family and killed a member.<br /> <br /> I'm afraid I would put death on someone who killed someone close to me, they made off with a life that I once knew and cherished.. the murderer might not be much of a person, and they don't mean crap to me, but their actions certainly did and those actions(especially if malicious) should be punished to the highest degree possible. Then I'll be satisfied and I'll feel safer.<br /> <br /> You'll find that a lot of the killers that kill with malicious intent don't reason, they don't seem to care about what choices they've made, a lot of them just want to kill more because they enjoyed it for some reason. Whatever it happens to be.