03-14-2012 at 12:07 AM

@Clay: That's what I said in the next sentence: supply and demand. I don't know how in demand they are nowadays. The same handful of magical food and water bowls have been sitting in user shops for a bit.. even though they are no longer available from store shops. <br /> <br /> I'm not sure what constitutes a reasonable amount of time for you. Reasonable in regards to the amount of TP being maxed or just your own personal time-frame?<br /> <br /> If you bought a MWB, it was to use on your capped dog, yes? MWB's used to be a lot cheaper, so yes, people could buy them without already having a maxed, capped dog.<br /> <br /> You said that you had 2 dogs that had reached the Gromit level. The requirement for a dog to be in that bracket is that they have 700 or more wins. Unless the dogs you mentioned aren't at Gromit level, if you are saying they don't have that many wins?<br /> <br /> Yes, low level dogs running against low level dogs is great. But that doesn't happen as often as it could. A person has to be a bit bonkers to enter their dog in first in a trial and expect it to place once the race runs. You're complaining about your 9k dog being beaten out by 12k's and saying that's why you don't trial anymore? The range is even greater on the other end of the spectrum. So why would you assume folks with low level dogs are going to be happy trialing and getting beaten if you've stopped running your capped dog because it's being beaten by other capped dogs? The problem is exactly the same. There is just more of a TP disparity with lower level dogs.<br /> <br /> I do have to wonder about that 20k TP dog. Every time it runs it's TP is going up a bit. And every time those Aviator caps skill-up it rises even higher. It could be that all 60+ of those aviator caps can actually keep that dog running and profiting for a *really* long time since it's score is always increasing. Another question I have is, where did all the money to spend on that dog even come from? :P I'm not saying that person is at fault for being able to spend $200 mill into a dog. But really, what makes that even possible? Should it be possible?<br /> <br /> And, I think the price to max a capped dog is going to vary. The prices of those items aren't always constant, and a person can always cut deals and trade for what they need... without spending bones/Ala cash. Let's not pretend like MWB's have always been worth $6 million or so... that's a very recent change. Also, a person may or may not have to buy all of those items every time they train up a capped dog. So I don't think we can really assume that there is a fixed cost to maxing a capped dog.<br /> <br /> @Kiba: I don't know why people respond to me like I'm asking for handouts. I'm saying that the game is being slanted towards folks who are already established here. For example, your account says it has 629 days of log-ins. Yes, you can afford to wait days to enter a trial that your dog can win because you are already established. When you're starting out, you're trying to scrape up every penny you can. It's different now than it was back then. Things cost more. The range of TP is wider and still growing as people continue to push passed the breedable cap. Dogs now have a greater chance of losing -- costing their owner money instead of earning it -- than they did back then (which is what causes people to pass up on trialing all together). And yet... the amount of cash in circulation continues to grow. So where is that money coming from?<br /> <br /> People have basically said here that lower level dogs basically deserve to win less and bring in less money because of their low TP. And yes, that's exactly what they're doing now, and will do on a greater scale once teaming is broken. So alone, that argument points to where the real problem is, but no one wants to admit it because they don't want to lose out on their investments. The only people I see trying to tell me I am mistaken are those who own capped dogs and have been here for a while. :-/<br /> <br /> It makes no sense to put something into place that will do nothing to change the economy, but instead further restricts a person's gameplay at the lower level. The goal of this entire thread was to come up with a solution that will actually turn the economy around, yet the weakest, most ineffective option is winning.<br />

03-13-2012 at 8:10 PM

<i> I'm going to take a guess, but I think it's safe to assume that the majority of folks on here have work, school, or families to take care of. Not everyone can be online all the time cutting deals, flipping items, and waiting to enter their dogs into trials as singles or pairs. </i><br /> <br /> I have school, clubs, a social life and homework, all of which take good chunks of time. I just have to say, trialing doesn't take that much effort, even with one or two dogs. It takes less than five minutes to look for trials your dog can win, and if there aren't any, oh well, better luck tomorrow, or later. This is how I've trialed my whole time on ala, I've made money off of it. No I'm not earning 100s of thousands in one day, or even a week, but I do get the money the dog is worth eventually, and I have money to buy some nice items as well. I started with a 400 TP dog and worked up to a near capped one, entering only one dog at a time (two occasionally, but not often). Yes it was slow going, but it will always be like that. Go to any sim the size of ala and you will find the same deal. It takes work and effort to get the expensive things and to have lots of money in the bank. You can't expect money to fall out of the sky and onto your lap when you first start.

03-13-2012 at 7:59 PM

<i>"The reason the items cost what they currently do is due to inflation caused by capped dogs making too much money..."</i><br /> <br /> Or maybe because they're rare and desirable. You cannot max a capped dog in a reasonable timeframe with just a MFB or without one - they're extremely wanted.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <i>"When they were readily available, people were able to buy them, use them on their dogs, then earn it all back easily through trialing."</i><br /> <br /> I did not have a capped dog when I bought my first MWB.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <i>"Let's take one of your capped dogs that stopped once it hit Gromit. To get to that point, your dog needed to place 700 times."</i><br /> <br /> There is absolutely NO WAY my dog has won all 700 times. Not a chance. That's the reason why i don't trial anymore, because there are 12K TP capped dogs in Gromit and it's not worth the $4K or so every time I enter her in a trial. I know she hasn't made that much because for a while I was tracking every dime she made.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <i>"I'm not saying the lower level dogs should be able to advance all the way up in trials. I'm saying that the lower level dogs most likely won't be running anymore if their chances of placing are further reduced."</i><br /> <br /> I don't understand the logic behind this. Trialing low-tp against low-tp is a fair trial, there's nothing unfair about it.<br /> <br /> When thinking about the $$ it takes owning a capped dog to max and trial it, you have to factor in energy companion price, food price, Magical Rubber Ball/Breakfast Bagel price (assuming other people use them for maxing like I do), trial entries, the cost of a Magical Food Bowl/Magical Water Bowl AND the cost of entry fees.<br /> Look at Rosencrown. That's the dog with the highest TP on the site and rakes in $30K per trial. Jackdaw still states that Rosencrown will never make back the $$ spent on her in a reasonable time frame.<br /> <br /> EDIT: Oops! I forgot the price of golden leash, autofeeder, rejuvenator, etc.<br /> EDIT 2: whoops lol, and a timewarp and a scholar collar

03-13-2012 at 5:56 PM

The reason the items cost what they currently do is due to inflation caused by capped dogs making too much money... and the removal of bowls from the site shops (low supply, high demand). When they were readily available, people were able to buy them, use them on their dogs, then earn it all back easily through trialing. Our current situation is a consequence of that. It will take time to heal.<br /> <br /> Let's take one of your capped dogs that stopped once it hit Gromit. To get to that point, your dog needed to place 700 times. Let's say each win got your dog roughly $15k per. That's $10.5 million that you earned with that dog in wins. That doesn't strike me as a short amount of time or a small chunk of change at all. Yes, it takes time and money to max a dog. But the reason that it costs so much to max a capped dog is because they are able to make so much money. It's a cycle.<br /> <br /> I'm not saying the lower level dogs should be able to advance all the way up in trials. I'm saying that the lower level dogs most likely won't be running anymore if their chances of placing are further reduced. On the high end/capped side, they are less affected by the busting up of teams. And the high end is what needs to be fixed.<br /> <br /> Hard work is great, but if it's harder to pull yourself up by your bootstraps in this game versus another sim, guess where people will be headed? Right out the door to the other sim. Especially if the other game is constantly rolling out new and interesting things to attract people. This is a form of entertainment. It shouldn't feel like a job.<br /> <br /> Also, the problem with this solution is counting on the fact that most people who play have plenty of time to spend here. I'm going to take a guess, but I think it's safe to assume that the majority of folks on here have work, school, or families to take care of. Not everyone can be online all the time cutting deals, flipping items, and waiting to enter their dogs into trials as singles or pairs.<br /> <br /> When I mention dead accounts, I mean accounts where the person hasn't logged in since last year. I wasn't tossing up those numbers to pertain to capped trial teams. That statement was more from an economic/business standpoint.

03-13-2012 at 3:15 PM

<i>Either way, breaking the teams won't have the affect that people are seeking. The problem is still that capped dogs are making too much money. Whether they are on teams or not, those capped dogs are still going to be running, winning, and raking in more money over their trial career than they should be.</i><br /> Have you taken into consideration the amount of $$ needed to max these dogs? MFB are around $1,000,000 with the average MFB being 20 bones. 20 bones is $1,600,000 if we're going to price each bone at the going rate of $80k. MWB were around $2,000,000 the last time I've seen one for cash sale. Priced at $80k per bone with the average bone price of a MWB at 85 and it's $6,800,000.<br /> While capped dogs do make more money compared to lower-tp dogs, they run for a short amount of time (I've stopped trialing two of mine already once they hit Gromit) and don't make the amount of $$ spent on maxing them in a reasonable time-frame.<br /> <br /> <i>At the opposite end, the breaking up of teams may discourage people from running lower level dogs at all.</i><br /> Lower-level dogs will always stay in the lower levels, it's a fact. Lower dogs hang out in lower levels, the lower-tp dogs will be fighting against other lower-tp dogs. There's nothing unfair about this.<br /> <br /> <i>The goal isn't to discourage people from playing here. If they feel discouraged, they leave.</i><br /> If they feel discouraged, they save their money and get a higher-tp dog. That's what I did. Hard work on this site means success. It's just a fact. I didn't get where I am today by laying down and crying about people trampling my dogs. I sold dogs, I sold items, I played the games endlessly, I trialed dogs, and then I bought myself a capped dog.<br /> <br /> <i>Some 22,000 accounts with only 700 or so log-ins per day? Red flag.</i><br /> This has absolutely nothing to do with capped dogs trialing. You've never signed up for a sim site and just forgot to log in or lost interest? That's what I did with GaiaOnline and PokeFarm.

03-13-2012 at 8:16 AM

Either way, breaking the teams won't have the affect that people are seeking. The problem is still that capped dogs are making too much money. Whether they are on teams or not, those capped dogs are still going to be running, winning, and raking in more money over their trial career than they should be.<br /> <br /> At the opposite end, the breaking up of teams may discourage people from running lower level dogs at all. I don't believe that having less dogs with low TP running in trials is going to fix the economy. They just don't bring in enough to really make an impact -- especially not when a capped dog's winnings are equal to the winnings of 5 - 10 lower level dogs. The scale is not broken at the lower TP levels. It is broken at the high TP levels. The logical solution is to fix things where they are actually messed up.<br /> <br /> The goal isn't to discourage people from playing here. If they feel discouraged, they leave. That is very bad for business. People can talk all they want about 'well you just have to work for it' or 'I worked hard at this, so everyone else should too'! Honestly, I don't know why people say that, because in the real world, hard work doesn't guarantee success. Not in the least. So I don't know why it's pushed so much on this site. <br /> <br /> The fact of the matter is, the game is very different now than it was when it first started, and I don't know if people are taking that into consideration. Look around at all the dead accounts on this site. At first, I thought there were a lot of people playing here, but there really aren't. That makes me think that there is something wrong that is not being addressed here. Some 22,000 accounts with only 700 or so log-ins per day? Red flag. There need to be real changes put in place that have long-term benefits. At this point, breaking up teams and discouraging people from playing is not one of them.

03-13-2012 at 4:16 AM

Because like I said. capped dog teams. All you're doing by entering your dog into a capped dog team in the higher levels is using your dog as a filler dog for their team.

03-13-2012 at 3:14 AM

I think I don't understand how it can't be possible if there are that many dogs running? Shouldn't it be simple to do since trials are being filled at a pretty quick rate? A person should be able to catch new trials when they come up, wait a moment to see which ones are being filled, then enter. I don't see how it can be any different from lower brackets.<br /> <br /> I still feel like the problem is that capped dogs are able to make too much. It seems like, as we've gotten an increased number of dogs running who are capped, the inflation problem has gotten worse, no? As far as I can tell from running my dogs at the under 1k level, payouts seem reasonable. There are actual points where, as far as prize money is concerned, it's now sort of pointless to run some of my dogs at certain levels because the payouts are negated by entry fees (ex. running most dogs below 500 TP or so at the Odie level). I don't see where/when that is occurring with capped dogs. Or if it it does finally occur, it may be happening way too late in the dogs' career.<br /> <br /> I just don't think that breaking teams will have enough of a slowing affect to really reduce the flow of cash that we already have coming to the site. 3 months from now, we will probably be in the same situation... trying to hash out another solution to this problem. Who knows, we will probably be looking at an economy with over $2 billion in circulation at some point in the near future. >.&lt;<br /> <br /> And now that I think about it more, I'm pretty certain that it won't fix our inflation issue. Breaking teams only stops one person from ensuring 3 quick wins for themselves. But 3 dogs are always going to win, regardless. So, that money is still going to be coming into the site, and still isn't being spent quickly enough... the reason for our cash surplus.

03-13-2012 at 2:05 AM

<i>"But if the person plays as others have suggested for lower TP dogs to do -- waiting for trials to be almost full before placing their dog -- I don't think that would really be a problem."</i><br /> <br /> Not commonly possible in the higher-tp levels. That's where I see all the teams (capped and non) because there are so many capped dogs.

03-12-2012 at 4:34 PM

I suppose other dogs could beat them if they are spread out and the person entered them into the trial first. But if the person plays as others have suggested for lower TP dogs to do -- waiting for trials to be almost full before placing their dog -- I don't think that would really be a problem. Especially not for a dog that is at the high end of the spectrum with a smaller number of dogs that are actually able to beat it.<br />

03-12-2012 at 2:34 PM

<i>"Yes, a capped dog team is going to be making a good chunk of money, but that money is most likely still going to be made even if the dogs were spread out in separate trials."</i><br /> <br /> Not likely.<br /> A capped dog team ensures at least three wins. Separating the dogs into trials gives other dogs a chance to knock em down.<br /> I've actually taken to mentally noting down people with capped dog trial teams and when I see their username or image when I enter my dogs in a trial, I don't enter my dogs, because I find this act so lazy and rude.

03-12-2012 at 3:08 AM

Even if there are capped dog teams, I think the real problem is that dogs on the high end of the TP spectrum are able to make too much money... not that people are able to team their dogs. Yes, a capped dog team is going to be making a good chunk of money, but that money is most likely still going to be made even if the dogs were spread out in separate trials. <br /> <br /> In fact, a person could stand to make more money by spreading out their capped dogs if they do it in a way that makes sure that every dog they enter places. Teaming means that only three of those dogs will place, but if they spread them out, all dogs have a better chance of placing. So, I'm not even sure having a capped dog team is even a smart idea. The only real advantage is that it means the person entering gets to control when the trial fills and runs.<br /> <br /> And yes, all dogs train at different speeds. But you would think that a highly trainable dog (a 'smart' dog) would take less time to train then one with low trainability (a 'dumb' dog) is what I'm getting at. XD

03-11-2012 at 9:31 PM

Ionic, there are capped dog trial teams too lol<br /> <br /> Also, the low-tp vs high-tp is a bit realistic itself. The higher the dog's TP, the longer a dog takes to train in each skill. Dogs in real life progress through training at different rates.

03-11-2012 at 9:20 PM

I'm not so sure that trial teams are the reason that are economy is so ridiculously bloated. Unless... there are a ton of people teaming all 1k+ TP dogs? I've been taking a crack at trialing again for a bit, and yes, I have been teaming. But the majority of the dogs I'm teaming are below 1k. I have three dogs that are above 1k TP at this current time.<br /> <br /> If you think about it, is a 5-man team of dogs really raking in that much more cash than say 1 dog with the same equivalent of TP? Think about this- it still takes time and effort to max all 5 dogs (5k TP is 5k TP, whether it is all in one dog or spread out over several), in addition they still have to be fed, vaccinated, and the chance that one of them will have an accident and be out of commission is greater since there are 5 dogs versus one. Additionally, that's 5 entry fees a person is paying, versus just the one for a dog that has a TP equal to all 5 dogs combined. And... if a person wants to have trial-boosting items for each dog... that's even more expense (aviator caps, energy companions, kitsune, etc.). I don't view it as something that is super easy (or cheap) to do.<br /> <br /> Yes, it can be argued that it's not 'realistic', but let's be honest here: how much of this game is really all that realistic? We can force dogs to have babies with items, reverse their age, magically raise their IQ, raise them from the dead, place a magical bandanna on them to make them appear as a puppy or adult... Not to mention that a highly trainable dog (high TP) takes longer to train than a dog with very low trainability (low TP). That doesn't mirror real life in the slightest. The fact of the matter is, you can' mirror real life too closely on this game or it starts to become un-fun. The site already reflects that with all the crazy things we are currently able to do to our dogs.<br /> <br /> What I'm trying to say is, yes, we can bust up teams. Teams may not be "fair" because they are an alternative way to guarantee wins versus maxing out a capped dog. But if teams are not the #1 reason that the economy is inflated, we are still going to be stuck in the same situation -- with the addition of having frustrated more players out of trialing and possibly playing on the site at all.

03-11-2012 at 3:18 PM

As it stands, I only enter two of my dogs in any trial anyways, no more than two at a time. This is because I find it unfair for me to snag all the wins with my capped dogs. I think it's a bit... snobbish for someone to fill a trial with a capped dog team.

03-11-2012 at 8:49 AM

Looks like the first option is going to win from the look of the votes. That was what I chose and voted for out of the options we were given. <br /> <br /> Like Clay had said, I almost view it as a type of cheating to fill a whole trial with your dogs. I have done it before when I was trialing a bunch of low TP dogs simply because I had -so- much quantity to trial. I wasn't aiming to do any sort of teams. I was doing it more for the TP boosts. <br /> <br /> I always thought filling a trial full of your dogs for the purpose of blocking others out so you can win as 'unsporting' which Clay had said. I just can't believe how people get mad if you mess up their teams. I don't pay attention to who is in the trial or their TPs. I just enter. I feel like I'm almost doing something wrong by having any capped dogs which isn't how it should be. <br /> <br /> So yes, I agree with the 1st option if I had to pick one. The energy option just means it takes all day to trial and I don't know if I'd be into that in the slightest and it still means the teams would continue. <br /> <br /> It would be interesting to have trials that did allow teams. Each player would only be able to add 1 team between their two kennels. The teams would be between 2-4 dogs. And the trial would take 4-8 teams to enter. I think this would be sort of cool but eh I'm just lightly suggesting it. Sounds interesting.<br /> <br /> *Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to police you or anything ^^;; just reminding that we had a whole board to it. Didn't mean to come off that way.

03-11-2012 at 1:03 AM

<i>"TP sectioning was alredy turned down, Admins and mods alredy had you create a debate on this and explained there reason for it. No point in bringing it up again and again, after it being turned down again and again by the admins and mods."</i><br /> <br /> Still doesn't mean it wouldn't work. :) I still think it's better than the current options and things were left unanswered in that debate. Either way Kaitie is right, I'll leave it at that.

03-10-2012 at 10:09 PM

Hence why I think TP sectioning should be put into place. <br /> <br /> TP sectioning was alredy turned down, Admins and mods alredy had you create a debate on this and explained there reason for it. No point in bringing it up again and again, after it being turned down again and again by the admins and mods.

03-10-2012 at 7:59 PM

Alright,s orry Kaitie :) I will get back to discussing trial teams

03-10-2012 at 4:18 PM

There is already a post in debate about sectioning ^^;;