06-11-2011 at 8:43 AM

The reason mods edit post is simply this:<br /> <br /> 4) Posts will not be deleted, as they hold evidence and opinion. However, they may be edited by the mods as they see fit.<br /> <br /> The reasons that a mod will edit a post is it is breaking the rules on Ala. Recently many of the post that I have edited have been harassment and blatant attacks against other users. The posters are not given the option to edit these because they are in clear violation of the rules that they SHOULD know before joining the debate, and have frankly been repeat offenders. It is not fair for the person being harassed or attacked to have to wait for the poster to edit their post. Simply removing the offending content serves to deal with the situation swiftly.<br /> <br /> As to why they are not simply deleted, they serve as evidence about the posters having broken the forum rules. If they were to only be deleted the staff would have no access to the post if they were to be needed on a later occasion. <br />As well players were give a chance to edit post, but it became apparent that was not enough as the rule breaking would continue with no heed to the warnings. Therefore the fastest most effective actions were chosen to keep the debate boards in keeping with the rules.<br><br /> Quite frankly your ranting about the wrong people, mods enforce the rules. They do not create them.

06-11-2011 at 7:11 AM

You answered my question, Cervine, thank you.<br /> <br /> Mods. Editing users' posts without forewarning? That is really, stunningly, astoundingly bad form.<br /> <br /> <img src="http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8335/stopi.png">

06-11-2011 at 2:48 AM

I gotta say I do hate the mods editing posts. In my opinion, they should message the users to edit their posts themselves. Especially because then, a post doesn't become completely useless with only the words "removed by mod", or by the majority of posts becoming useless because they are riddled with that phrase. Message the users so they can come up with a different way to say what they are saying.

06-11-2011 at 2:16 AM

Can I please have an answer to my question below? I don't mean that to sound snappish or snide in the least, I would just really like to know. :o

06-11-2011 at 1:11 AM

*hugs rev*<br /> <br /> I don't know what else to say than what I've said either here or another debate thread, but it seems like our responses are changing a bit more.<br /> <br /> I think my previous psot is where I stand now, and I'll be sure to change it if anything happens. But I think I'm understanding the mods a bit more, maybe whenever I become a mod on a site, I'll experiene what they are (even if one may see this as being something terrible) just so I can see things eye to eye.

06-11-2011 at 12:57 AM

I haven't read any responses, so this is my response to the original post.<br /> <br /> I completely understand where you're coming from. The majority of games I play I am a normal user, and I have run into mods who think that because they're mods, they get to go on a power spree. (I even have managers at my work who do that.) Yes, it's annoying, and it makes for an unpleasant experience.<br /> <br /> Here's my stance from being a mod: When a player sends me a PM saying, "Why did you do XXXXX?? It's not fair!!" it makes me become defensive. My instant response is, "You deserved it, and now I won't even consider undoing it because you approached me like that."<br /> <br /> It boils down to respect. It's a two-way highway. The staff need respect, and we need to respect you all as players. No one deserves to be yelled at, cursed at, called names, etc.<br /> <br /> Now, the rules are set up as a guideline for you all to follow. If you can't follow the rules, then you get punished. If you don't like the rules, you are under no obligation to play Alacrity. By playing Alacrity, you have agreed to abide by the rules.<br /> <br /> If you, the players, have questions about our decisions, because Heaven knows we are not perfect, then please tell us. But please be respectful and address your issue in a mature matter. No one needs to be sent a PM with caps and excessive punctuation. Use the Issue Hub. That's what it's there for.<br /> <br /> For me, I want to understand you all as players, because yes, you -are- what makes Alacrity fun. Talk to us. I know for me, I don't want to be a hotheaded mod. If you have a concern, let me know.

06-10-2011 at 7:43 PM

Getting back on topic as well, although I'm not sure if I was off topic or not...<br /> <br /> But anyways, although sometimes it may seem like the staff is being the bad people, i can't help but wonder what it must feel like being in their shoes when this is going on. If I was being ignored constantly after it's been said in multiple threads and in the rules to stay on topic and not harass other members, I might be ticked off as well. But wether or not the actions afterward are jsutified or not is where the debate lies. I have no intention of saying that what is being done by the staff is right or not. I do not want to lose the faith and friendship with these mods becuase of a heated debate and its influence on them as well as on me. I think I'm starting to see where some mods are coming from with their actions, and I will NOT say what I agree with them on, however, there are somethings that I can't ignore that I mentioned earlier.

06-10-2011 at 8:18 AM

Unrelated to any discussion currently going, I think. I haven't caught back up on this thread, I'm just curious.<br /> <br /> Moderators editing posts. Tell me, are users being messaged and asked to change their posts, and given time to do so?<br /> <br /> As much as I agree with parts of it, I knew the moment I read it that this new rule was going to be abused. And it seems like users are getting angrier than they <i>originally were</i> by the fallout of this rule.<br /> <br /> Simple solution? If a user is crapping up a thread, ask them to stop/change their posts. If they persist, tell them to stop posting in the thread. If they continue beyond, give them a warning, and so forth. Thread closing is unnecessary and editing users posts is just disgusting.

06-10-2011 at 2:46 AM

<b>All post MUST be on topic. If you have issues with another player, take it to a mod. If you have issues with a mod, take it to Wysp.<br /> <br /> Personal attacks in ANY manner on Alacrity are taken very seriously. Post on the debate forum are NOT removed, and only edited because they are evidence of past behaviour.</b>

06-10-2011 at 2:35 AM

Edited by mod

06-10-2011 at 2:25 AM

Edited by mod

06-10-2011 at 2:22 AM

Edited by mod

06-10-2011 at 2:01 AM

While sometimes things might get out of hand, Jambers, you can't blame it soley on another person. I've seen what you said in some posts and from a third person's view who has neutral feelings for you, the other user, and the mod, you sometimes say things that put OTHERS at their breaking point.<br /> <br /> Before you make a post and complain about what people are saying to you, think about what you are saying to them.<br /> <br /> I am thinking before writiing this so I can predict what your response will be. That is what a person would normally do when planning a well thought out repsonse. By saying that the mod didn't do anything because of what someone said isn't enough to blame them, you need to look at yourself first as well.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> On top of that, posts that seem rushed or with multiple capitalization just shows that you aren't thinking a repsonse and aren't paying full attention to wha everyone is saying. Especially sine what a person says reflects their maturity on the internet. And the more rushed and lacking of attention to details you seem, the less people will respect you.

06-10-2011 at 1:53 AM

Personaly id like to see a mod stop people from insulting people in the debate forums. I have reported the attacks on not only me but my kids several times and nothing is being done but a mod taking out the attacks. One person continusley insulted me in EACH paragraph for 3 pages!!!! What was done? A warning after a warning and another warning until that forum was closed. Its time a mod steps in and does his or her job BEFORE 3 pages of nothing but insults are seen. <br /> <br /> I'm sure you have all heard the term "the straw that breaks the camels back" <br /> <br /> I am at the point now that i will not report it anymore and simply take care of it myself.

06-5-2011 at 7:00 PM

While I support Carni's words and agree with what Geist said, myself trying to change my whole life to fit into Ala timelines and style, I want to add a few words to this debate.<br /> <br /> There's almost 7 thousand billions people in the world. And each has their own taste in art, and people's character bias. We're people too, all of us, in the team. We're not robots, we will have our own tastes, thoughts and opinions, although at least for artists, we put them aside and try to please as many Ala players as possible. We won't please you all. <br /> <br /> That's what CAMs are for, as well. To make your own stuff that will please you even more.<br /> <br /> While I agree that some staff members aren't always nice and cuddly, it's inhuman to expect of them perfection. If there are staff members I don't get along with, I just don't talk with them much. This way there's no unfortunate accidents or discussions.<br /> <br /> I myself agreed that maybe stuff like map or riddler should be polled first. But the site needs changing, otherwise it will stagnate.<br /> It's a game you are playing, and it's made by people who take care of this. While the team takes notes of your suggestions very eagerly, it's not a democracy, there's just no way we can all vote on every little detail that needs changing.<br /> <br /> I haven't been here for a long time. Frankly, three months maybe. But I think it's enough to get the taste of present, get the knowledge of the past and get the idea of future.

06-4-2011 at 4:58 AM

To me 'making a few changes' doesn't seem like enough, they are artists.. they are not volunteering their time usually as this job usually pays them.<br /> <br /> Did they have to make the changes? No they didn't they could have left it as is and say deal with it, but Carnivale did it anyway. <br /> <br /> <br /> Because near all the monthly items you're usually paying out of pocket for them as a user. I understand the issue with 'I need to get things done within a month' but making quantity over quality doesn't always go well with certain people who dish out money for it.<br /> <br /> Simple salution, if you dont like it, then dont buy it. Ive payed USD's here too for items from the monthly shop. Was i forced to buy something i didnt like? NO. If you deside to buy a item from the shop that you dont like thats your own choice, no one is forceing you to do so.

06-4-2011 at 4:32 AM

"You guys aren't following the previous style, you guys are following more your style Carn."<br /> <br /> I have been with Carni for seven years. As a result, I have become incredibly familiar with her art style. The style of Alacrity absolutely is not it. Everyone here is trying to emulate the painterly semi-realism, similar to but without being an <i>exact</i> duplicate of Heleasher, and by god they are definitely not trying to draw or paint just like Carni. I was a site artist myself, it wasn't Carni's art I was looking at while I was painting to be certain it matched up, that's for sure.<br /> <br /> I have to say that considering your history with Alacrity and the art team, your posts sound incredibly personal and biased. This is coming from someone who has issues with staff, so I'm not exactly prone to being lenient with them. Even with Carni herself. I'll point-blank tell her if she's screwing up.

06-4-2011 at 4:23 AM

You're making assumptions, Inno.<br /> <br /> I have to point out, the art team mostly gets paid in site currency, not USD. I'm not going to point out which ones are currently on USD, and those who haven't upgraded to it yet (a decision that lies only with Robyn, as she has to sort out the budget between paying for hosting, paying certain staff, paying the coder, etc. etc.), because I don't feel that information is appropriate in a public setting.<br /> <br /> But I just had to point out that, other than site currency, the artists are more or less donating their efforts, and not for USD compensation.<br /> <br /> Also, the new Riddler image wasn't just whipped up in a few days. Kittybot worked on it for a very long time, having to pause several times in order to take care of her queue of monthly site items, so it's definitely not a piece that was just thrown out quickly and not looked at.<br /> <br /> As I said, I personally took the time to fix up the face, as that was the area of complaint with the majority of people.<br /> <br /> I'd like to think that, for most of the team not getting USD pay, they do a heck of a job for the site, and meeting monthly deadlines, and dealing with my personal quality control where they do often have to go back and fix things before I allow the items onto the site. If people still have problems with the items afterward, then they're more than welcome to their opinions. But I would like everyone to understand that nothing is put onto the site art-wise without already going through reviews and edits if needed.<br /> <br /> I'd also like to point out that, in your accusations of the team not keeping the users in mind, I'd like to draw attention to a few things.<br /> <br /> 1) I hold even myself to high standards, and make changes to my own contributions to the site where needed. For example, I polled people in chat for the issue of a straight or curly tail for the husky. Since there seemed to be equal demand for both, I went ahead and included the option for both. The JRT puppy was redrawn 3 times. The first time because Robyn wasn't fully satisfied, the second time because even I wasn't satisfied with how it turned out, and the the third redraw has garnered a great deal of praise from the majority of the userbase. This also happened with the husky breed. There were several problems with my first attempt, so I started from scratch, and I showed the sketch to the entire art team, and also posted a link in chat to let people give honest crits. This is because I believe the most time and effort should be put into the breeds. I put a great deal of stock in what the users say, while also remembering that it's impossible to please absolutely everybody.<br /> <br /> 2) I took it upon myself to make everything in Hardcore Pups as well as upgrade items compatible with the puppy images. The original plan, supported by Robyn, was to only make companions compatible. But because I keep the userbase in mind, I wanted to provide the users with at least a limited selection of equipable items for their puppies. It's a good deal more work, repositioning companions as well as getting everything in HP lined up, but I do it because I care about the users, because as the head artist I want to be sure I'm earning my keep and my position, and am providing a good example to the rest of the team by going that extra mile. But I also impress upon them that they can never please everyone, and that if a handful of people get loud about not liking something, to remember that they do not represent the entire community. We are a community of thousands, and often have user numbers up in the hundreds on the site all at once. The people who have been loud about complaints so far are always a small handful in comparison to the big picture. I also remind them of the people who -do- like changes or additions or items, etc. <br /> <br /> 3) On the issue of "the customer is always right;" after the Pap puppies were released, a handful of users claimed they didn't look like Pap puppies at all. Then, they were shown photos of actual Papillon puppies. They abandoned their claims pretty quickly when confronted with the actual frames of reference to what a pup of that breed looks like. They had their own preconceived ideas about what a Pap puppy looks like, without considering what one -actually- looks like. So, I have seen situations like this play out several times, and no. The customer is not always right. So the art team has to find balance between doing what the users want, and doing what -we- are confident in. The same goes for all of the staff.<br /> <br /> 4) As stated numerous times, I fixed the main source of complaint about the new Riddler; the face. The only other main source of complaint I do plan to do something about in the future are those who just wish they were told it would change beforehand, so that they'd be prepared for it. I have every intention of doing so in the future, before any artistic changes are made. However, I am not going to force the entire art team to consult with the userbase about every little thing. We already take many suggestions to include the userbase. If users -still- don't feel like they have enough control over what goes on, then they might consider starting up their own sim. Users can not be in 100% control of a game; it applies to video games, PC games, and sim games. There are creators, and there are users. We do listen to the users, but that doesn't mean we give up our artistic freedoms to bring to Alacrity what we want as well. We did not begin on Alacrity with the positions we have now. We started as users, and are -still- users/players. So we know exactly what it's like being a player on Alacrity, hoping for suggestions to be picked up. We've perhaps even been -too- accepting of userbase control, to the point several users seem to become outraged when we aren't doing exactly what they want us to do.<br /> <br /> 5) Breed polls will be taken after puppy images are finished, and this has been the plan for a long time. Breeds that are popular in the Suggest Something forum will be put to a vote, and the winner will be the next breed on Alacrity. Do you still want to say that Alacrity's userbase has no control at all over site content? That we don't listen to you? Just because, on a very limited basis, we do things the users didn't vote for, does -not- mean we never listen and don't care.<br /> <br /> 6) I began requiring the art team to submit at least one item each for the main shops every month, so that our -non donating members- would still have items to look forward to, instead of feeling like only people who have access to bones get to have new content. This means that they are doing items that bring no actual monetary gain to Alacrity, and I require them to do it and they are -happy- to do it, because we care about the userbase, donators and non-donators alike. <br /> <br /> So, this is why it can be downright insulting when someone tries to throw around claims that we ignore the userbase and we don't care about the users and only ever do what -we- want to do. We do things the way we do them because things did -not- get done this way back before Hel was dismissed, before there was a team of people who could collaborate together and bring several perspectives and approaches to the table instead of just one person doing whatever the heck they want without putting much stock in what the users had to say. We know what that felt like, because we were all (save for a member too new to have been around back then) there, we experienced it, and we don't want to repeat the way things were. But we also have to balance things out, and while it's not always perfect, I'd have to say the site has gone uphill rather than down. It's gone uphill monetarily (this -is- still a business, and a full time job for some of us), we have more users than ever before (many of them from foopets, who praise Alacrity for being nothing like it), and for the most part people are typically thrilled with the new items and happy with the new breeds and puppy images.<br /> <br /> We can't please everybody. That's a total impossibility. But we absolutely do listen and care, and while some users may not get their way 100% of the time, and might even get loud and defiant about it, we know that we are -not- doing any wrong to this community or this site.

06-4-2011 at 4:02 AM

You know.. these artist usually get paid in USD. I don't see why they can't edit the image to make it more acceptable in the least sense. Fixing anatomy or other commonly pointed out problems/upsets is almost a given unless it's just given from a member who is unacceptably meticulous about things.<br /> <br /> To me 'making a few changes' doesn't seem like enough, they are artists.. they are not volunteering their time usually as this job usually pays them.<br /> <br /> The artists/whatever didn't ask us what we would like to see and how, these are keys to engaging the community because the site seem to go off the claims 'the art is important to the site and needs to be of a higher quality'.<br /> <br /> Now if this higher quality is what they've put up, then I guess that's the best they can do right? I would at least hope it is... Because near all the monthly items you're usually paying out of pocket for them as a user. I understand the issue with 'I need to get things done within a month' but making quantity over quality doesn't always go well with certain people who dish out money for it.<br /> <br /> It's nice to have a lot of items to cruise through and buy but not all these pieces are what you'd hope for. I'm not going to point any examples out because I rather not, but I've had my share of disappointing items showing up in the monthly shop as promised and not the quality I hoped for.<br /> <br /> EDIT: Carni posted before I replied.<br /> <br /> I guess we'll have to but I'm just saying. I think anything in possible with the right set of mind. You guys aren't following the previous style, you guys are following more your style Carn. I like your style sometimes, but I wish you guys would just slow down and take more time and consideration into at least the main/big pieces of art that go onto the site. Ask people outside of the team for help and all that stuff.<br /> <br /> It's like what happened with a few of the dog breeds really. But seeing as I can't go over that, I simply won't.

06-4-2011 at 4:00 AM

I'm very sorry that you feel that way, Inno, but I must say the outlook here is limited.<br /> <br /> We do take into consideration what the users say, and there's plenty evidence of it all over the site. The Feed All button, for instance, was suggested and it made a lot of sense. I personally pushed for it to be included, and I've pointed other things out to higher staff that have been suggested by users, saying "this is a great idea, maybe we could implement it." And I know that isn't just me, but other staff members as well.<br /> <br /> Plus, if we left absolutely all items up for critique, do you know how badly that would slow production down? Not to mention, everyone has their own opinion of how something ought to be, and I'm not about to put the team through tons of redraws to try and impossibly suit every single user's tastes. <br /> <br /> I care about the community and what it has to say, just like the admins care, and the site owner cares. But, again, it doesn't mean people get their way 100% of the time. And that doesn't just apply to the users, but the staff as well. There are plenty ideas that get changed, compromised, or even rejected by staff.<br /> <br /> It's easy to point at faceless staff and say "you're doing everything wrong and you're the problem; the customer is absolutely always right." It looks good in text, but it's not always true.<br /> <br /> Also, if people are going to make complaints about anatomy, I'm not sure why there's such a huge outcry, as compared to what the previous Riddler image was. You know? But further discussion on the Riddler should be reserved to the thread dedicated to it. I looked at the complaints, and the majority seemed to have complaints about the face and eyes. I changed/fixed them, and several were satisfied with the fix. While others have their own ideas of what the Riddler should be.<br /> <br /> We can please some of Alacrity's users, but doing so with every single one of them is impossible due to differing tastes.<br /> <br /> Also, as for "slopping on" items, the art team works hard on everything they do, and by no means is anything put onto the site without being shown to me in stages. They don't just blindly get "slopped" onto the site. As for making threads asking for critique on anything, maybe take into consideration the anatomy flaws in just about all of the breeds on Alacrity. None of them are 100% anatomically accurate. Not Hel's, not mine, but we aren't aiming for absolute perfection. Her style wasn't perfect, I have to match her style as much as is possible. But everyone on the art team tries to match styles, but can't be expected to be style-clones of each other. No art is completely anatomically perfect. I'm not saying the Riddler has no flaws at all, but I can't say that about any of the art on Alacrity, either.<br /> <br /> I don't take offense to what you're saying, I just don't agree with the points you're attempting to make. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.