06-26-2012 at 8:53 AM

Conformation isn't a "beauty pageant." It also tests how sound the dog is and how well it's put together. Truly responsible breeders breed healthy dogs and genetically test ALL of the puppies. The myth that purebred dogs are so unhealthy and mutts are the only healthy dogs is not true. The only breeders with consistent unhealthy dogs are those called backyard breeders, which are usually people who have a unspayed female dog who sees a intact male dog of that same breed, and say " Oh look let's breed our dogs!" Without any concern about health or soundness.

06-4-2012 at 3:18 PM

Y'all are misunderstanding what I'm saying.<br /> I;m saying that you can't compare a fur farmed fox's behaviour and breeding with a dog in your house, it doens't make any sense, foxes are a different species, they were kept in tiny cramped cages made entirely of wire.<br /> It's like this: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html<br /> That "study" was based on CAPTIVE WOLVES. It was used as scientific evidence of wolf behaviour. Yes. CAPTIVE wolves, not wild ones!... Then we took that and applied it to housedogs and now we have people rolling their dogs on their backs because someone decided they'd compare two entirely different animals in entirely different situations and apply the behaviour and "knowledge" of one to the other.

06-4-2012 at 9:52 AM

"Gosh I really, REALLY wish people would stop citing the Russian fox domestication experiment as proof of DOG behaviour, they are different species, that's like comparing wolf behaviour in a park to a dog in your backyard (WHOOPS, taht already happened and we wound up with the incorrect Cesar Milan-esque "Alpha Theory" and ALPHA ROLL" :/"<br /> <br /> But it's the same basic concept, is it not? We breed dogs down to be tame, that's exactly what they've done. And I don't see how that has anything to do with Cesar?

06-4-2012 at 9:52 AM

I really don't have an issue with pedigree working dogs that have proven performance. I really don't think of conformation as a sport that should determine pedigree. All conformation really proves is which dog is more pleasing to the eye to me, dogs were meant to work for people and be companion. Not to be a beauty pageant contestant. There are certain colours that are accepted and looked for, but there are thousands of colour combinations that exist naturally but aren't standard to the breed. <br /> A perfectly healthy dog can throw a litter of awful puppies, any breeder will tell you that breeding is a gamble. The problem is (in my eyes) that people don't look into the breed or the diseases that could possibly come with them and then don't test on top of that. And on top of that people get so attached to the company of their animals, they don't see the mercy of putting the thing down. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs, but no animal needs to suffer. Also, if you're giving your dog medication and it isn't working, I think it's safe to say you should stop spending money on it. <br /> There are so many aspects to what caused dogs to turn down such a terrible path other than genetics, disease, food, exercise etc. You can't just pin it on solely breeding or genetics. Eugenics on the other hand is another thing entirely with humans. It's not just appearance with humans, when it is with dogs. There are thousands of dogs with terrible personalities outside of the ring, but yet they're still bred. Inbreeding is a word thrown around in these kind of documentaries because it's one of those shocking buzz words. Breeding every third generation usually does not produce the same genetic disorders that come from mother/son or brother sister breeding. <br /> The word culled comes up in the video, but it has a couple of meanings. It could mean kill, neuter/spay, remain un-registered or sold to pet homes. People almost always assume that cull means kill. It's better than what you see in the United States where people breed their family pets on "accident" and then throw the puppies in a garbage bag and throw them in a lake, river, dumpster or in the road. <br /> <br /> I'll probably elaborate more on this later because I don't feel like I've thoroughly made my point.

06-4-2012 at 1:04 AM

I'd like to jump in and say- the russian fox experiment had several sibling experiments. one involved rats, and another I believe involved ferrets or weasels. and all the experiments showed the same outcome. The ones bred for 'visious' traits became more visious, and the ones bred for 'friendly' traits became more friendly, in all the tested species.<br /> <br /> "that's like comparing wolf behaviour in a park to a dog in your backyard"<br /> <br /> This is a false comparison. a wolf in a park has been, at best, tamed. Not domesticated. <br /> <br /> Domestication is the process of selectively breeding for certain traits, through many generations.<br /> <br /> Taming is the process of training one animal to behave 'well' around humans.<br /> <br /> A better comparison is: comparing domestic foxes to dogs, is like comparing domestic cats to dogs. All three are domesticated, but they retain traits unique to their own species.

06-4-2012 at 12:54 AM

Mix-breeds are thought to be healthier since there is no record of their illnesses. And it is all about what breeds are in the mix. I can only imagine what would come from a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and English Bulldog, assuming that both parents carry something horrible. <br /> <br /> If you mix Shiba and Basenji, the dog is going to be pretty healthy, since the primitiver dogs are generally healthier. Though it is all about the parents and their pedigree, what they carry and may inherit.<br /> <br /> When picking a mutt, make your research. When picking a purebred, make your research. You may have to be more thorough with mutt since their parents' information is harder to find. With purebreds, you know exactly who the parents are and can call their owners and so.

06-3-2012 at 10:52 PM

Gosh I really, REALLY wish people would stop citing the Russian fox domestication experiment as proof of DOG behaviour, they are different species, that's like comparing wolf behaviour in a park to a dog in your backyard (WHOOPS, taht already happened and we wound up with the incorrect Cesar Milan-esque "Alpha Theory" and ALPHA ROLL" :/<br /> <br /> <i>"Is it true that breeding dogs... can breed personality too? o.o I never really truely believed it but yea... are there any scientific proof that you can breed personalities?"</i><br /> What we do is we start off with a wolf, we domesticate him over a million billion jillion years until he is friendly with humans. They breed and breed until we have what resembles a dog. Where is this wolf-dog-thing located? In the middle-east? In the arctic? In the docks? All of these are contributing factors to how a dog will look and behave.<br /> Is the wolf-dog-thing good at running after hares? We breed him with another skinny, fast dog and get super fast, skinny, rabbit-chasing babies. We continue doing this to breed for certain traits (in this case, dogs who are extremely fast and have high prey drive).<br /> You take a dog like a Pit Bull (yes, using the Pit Bull example, I know someone si going to jump at my throat with an ignorant "factoid" like Pit Bulls are never mean or never bite ever ever never but whatever) and notice that he is strong, he's quick, he's trusty, he's ready to go at all times, he has a ton of energy. We use him to keep cows together on a butcher's lot. Fantastic work. People realize that hey.. this would be kind of "fun". They take this dog and tell him to do what he was made to do, but they selectively breed "gameness" into the dog. "Gameness" is a term used in bully breeds (APBT mostly) to describe a dog that will fight and will continue fighting even though he knows he is on the losing end, a dog who is "dead-game" is a dog who will fight until he is killed. People selectively breed dogs like this because I guess they find dogs attacking bulls relentlessly as "fun". This is outlawed, they take the dogs and pit them against each other. Up the gameness, up the drive, up the energy and up the dog-aggression and you have a perfect killer.<br /> To people, this may be seen as making the dog "mean", which I guess could be considered a personality trait.. but yes, the Pit Bull is proof that you can selectively breed a dog for certain traits and "personality".<br /> <br /> (in b4 someone tells me I'm wrong and that Pit Bulls were never used in fighting and were bred specifically to be "nanny dogs" lol)

06-3-2012 at 6:34 PM

I believe the domestication of Russian Foxes proved that you can breed for personality. Though of course a dogs enviroment and how it's raised has an effect.

06-3-2012 at 5:58 PM

heee &lt;3 i love the debate going on here. , I own a mini schnauzer but from where I live there aren't any 'professional' breeders around so there aren't any 'papers' for me when we bought Shushi. But at around one week she was diagnosed with critical disease and we were on the verge of losing her, thankfully she pulled through as a 6 month old puppy I'm quite proud of her. Anyways, I think we shouldn't be biased through one event, though perhaps I can relate this event to breeders, but it shows that SOME take poor care of their dogs and can lie fluently, but not all.<br /> <br /> Oh. Yea. the real reason I posted xD was to ask. Is it true that breeding dogs... can breed personality too? o.o I never really truely believed it but yea... are there any scientific proof that you can breed personalities? o.o does that mean we carry on the personalities of our parents? then we're like... mini clones? @.@ but then I can't take dogs and put them with humans so yeah... but does this prove that nature is better than nurture in breeding?

06-3-2012 at 4:26 PM

Nitrous, to be honest it sounds like your father got his puppy from a poor breeder. Just because he paid 1000 doesn't mean the breeder was any good. Good at tricking people into buying poorly bred puppies? Yes, apparently. Just from how you say the pup was raised prior to your father getting it, I'd say that's a bad breeder. So, logging all breeders of purebred dogs into that sort of category isn't fair, in my opinion.<br /> <br /> Bad breeders are going to lie. Its up to potential owners to scope out who they get their puppies from. I know for my next dog the breeder I've chosen I've been talking with for over a year and have also spoken to several people who own puppies from her lines. Titles in the show ring are also a plus. A breeder who isn't actively showing their breed is an automatic no in my book. If someone is going to get a purebred dog it's a matter of research, into the breed AND the breeder.<br /> <br /> As for mutts being healthier. I'm not saying that isn't sometimes the case but it is in no way a fact. A cross between two breeds is just as likely to have genetic defaults as any other poorly bred dog. And that's just health. Personality wise? My Lab/German Shepherd has BOTH the good and bads from his breeds, and sometimes those conflict one another. After all, most labs are going to be more outwardly friendly, while a german shepherd can be more stand-offish and protective. Mixing those two together? It does not create a better dog.

06-3-2012 at 3:37 PM

<i>"but as a general rule, mixed breed dogs are MUCH healthier in terms of hereditary diseases."</i><br /> Could you cite your sources on this? I haven't been popping in this thread for a long time, but I thought I'd common on this. I've heard that because a mutt is mixed up of different breeds, he has the possibility to get any number of illnesses.<br /> <br /> Thoughts?

06-3-2012 at 10:54 AM

"With purebreds, if a breeder wants to keep their reputation, they check the dogs an plan the breedings."<br /> <br /> Woah woah woah, huge misconception. I don't know what it's like over where you are, but as a general rule, mixed breed dogs are MUCH healthier in terms of hereditary diseases. <br /> <br /> I'll give you my dog for example, she died last year at eight years old. She was a purebred Boxer. Stepdad made the mistake of buying her for $1,000 as a puppy, thinking that because she had "papers" that she was a well bred dog. She wasn't. Far from it.<br /> <br /> He got her at around a year old. She had been improperly socialized, was terrified of men and other dogs and at one point lunged at my face when I bent over to pick up a water bottle I had dropped. She was the last puppy to sell and had been allowed to "run free" on the family farm, which meant she had nearly no human contact for the first year of her life. She had three cancerous tumors removed before the age of <i>four</i>, resulting in an ear amputation. <br /> <br /> This, according to her breeder, was a healthy, sociable, "akc registered, show quality" dog. They prey on idiots who have know idea what they're talking about and assume that "papers" ensure quality.<br /> <br /> "Papers" mean essentially zip.

06-3-2012 at 2:06 AM

I shall express my opinion to this matter.<br /> <br /> Mix-breed dogs are a huge problem. People breed their dogs since they want to have a puppy of their own dog and any partner will do. No casual breeder tests their dogs or their mates for health problems. They only think that their own dog is nice and it will have nice puppies. <br /> With purebreds, if a breeder wants to keep their reputation, they check the dogs an plan the breedings. In Finland, we don't even give out prizes in dog shows except for maybe dog food. The dog show-participant generally lose a lot more money than what they get, even though the price for a purebred puppy is about 1000€, upwards if it's a rare breed. Every day I see ads about selling pedigree-less purebred dogs, and they go for cheaper, a lot cheaper. They come from the casual breeders who don't check their dogs' health.<br /> <br /> Of course a legal and registered breeder will have sick dogs too! It is only natural that not everyone is perfect health. And if we only used perfectly healthy dogs, it would lead to inbreeding and in the end there would be no new blood for the gene-pool.<br /> <br /> Ugh, my though is beginning to escape. I hope this contributes a bit.

03-17-2012 at 6:09 PM

I discovered this documentary about 2 years ago. I love all dogs, but I would never own a purebred unless I was positive that it was bred properly and not for show-only purposes. <br />

02-14-2012 at 11:18 AM

I struggle with some purebreds. As you have seen bulldogs are being bred to the death. We have OVER bred our pedigrees. We are killing them, the bull dogs jaw is starting to make it impossible for them to breath, and pugs are soo inbred. for every 1000 pugs there is equal to 5 indavidual dogs thats wrong!. <br /> Also the ridge back is killed if it does not have a ridge back in many cases! Is it right a puppy is being killed for not having a genetical fault? <br /> I agree to some degree with pedigrees as in you tell what your dog will need. But mutts are exiting and beautiful also unique. So I am in it for the mutts!

01-18-2012 at 7:20 AM

What you probably watched was a puppy mill. No responcibl breeder would let their dogs get sick, sith blood and in disgusting conditions. I am against puppy mils, not responcibl breeders. Sure, I love recue, but it doesnt mean you have to banish responcible breeders. Responcible breeders love their dogs like family, not abused chickhens. I assure you, on ala you play the role of a responcible breeder, not a mill.

12-23-2011 at 10:42 AM

I hope I'm reading what you're saying right, Illusions. xD <br /> <br /> Uhm. I'll try to explain this as best I can. Humans don't inbreed because it's a matter of morality, which is a human concept. I guess it's possible that certain traits could be passed down in human inbreeding, but you also run into the risks for genetic diseases to pop up. <br /> <br /> Humans don't have a "breed standard" to work towards. We don't show people, so the value of an individual is not based on its conformation to a standard, it's the individual.<br /> <br /> I don't really get why humans would inbreed for purpose.

12-17-2011 at 4:35 AM

so in a way, if inbreeding passess on certain traits humans would do that too wouldn't they?<br /> almost confirming the theory that nature is better than nurture in this area? xD<br /> psychology xDD

10-5-2011 at 2:21 AM

Inbreeding in itself isn't bad >_&lt; It amplifies certain traits, good or bad you have to be cautious. And you should be breeding for certain things, such as a properly shaped,sound, athletic body. Health, dogs should be health tested, and no I don't mean vet check ups. <br /> http://www.pbrc.net/breeding3.html

10-2-2011 at 10:46 PM

Oh my that is crazy! i know several breeds suffur and now i know why breeders like that. I dont care what my litters look like if they are healthy there is no way im putting them to sleep! We have had people line up for our dogs, and most come back wanting another of our pups. I breed nice quailty dogs but do not inbreed or breed for certin things.