07-20-2011 at 6:27 AM

You are still refusing to acknowledge all the facts that were previously pointed out to you. There are certain cases where it is a known FACT that a child will not be okay (even once they reach adulthood) and thus should be aborted. Again, please go back and read the various posts and all the information provided.<br /> <br /> <i>"i got cut off, i didn't get the chance to explain. there are books, classes, and friends and parents can help you get ready for mother hood."</i><br /> <br /> There is an edit button for a reason. Books, classes, etc all cost money. Money is not something everyone has. Government programs can't be accounted for, because if abortion was illegal, there would be so many children that there wouldn't be enough funds to support them all. Plus not everyone has family and friends that are willing to help. There are also people who are just not mentally stable enough to care for a child.<br /> <br /> Also, please keep in mind The principles of debate— <b>logic</b>, <b>evidence</b>, case construction, <b>proof</b>, refuting arguments, rebuttal, etc. You arn't providing any of the above for your claims, you essentially just keep saying "IT MIGHT WORK OUT!"

07-20-2011 at 6:24 AM

and just because they might end up in foster care, which im sure is a HORRIBLE situation, it's not like they should be aborted to be 'put out of their misery' i mean childhood is only a small part of it, they have lives after that and the parent should not just assume that they wouldn't want to live if they had to do it in foster care

07-20-2011 at 6:22 AM

99%?? Yah right, second of all, i got cut off, i didn't get the chance to explain. there are books, classes, and friends and parents can help you get ready for mother hood. and theres no such thing as a perfect mother and you will make mistakes, but the parents should TRY. to back off because they're afraid, even though they can't even be certain that they'll be horrible, is cruelty to the child be aborting. "oh sorry, im THINK im going to be a bad mother and i THINK im not ready, so you don't get to live."

07-20-2011 at 5:20 AM

<i>"omg, for the last time, it's not "wishful thinking", Those Things Are Possible!"</i><br /> <br /> There is a 99.9% chance that <b>is not</b> going to happen. 99.9% of unwanted children should not have to suffer because 0.1% <b>might possibly but most likely not</b> do something like what you mentioned.<br /> <br /> <i>" and if they aren't ready for a child, Too Bad Learn."</i><br /> <br /> Uh, just because you say that doesn't mean that people will learn or be willing too. Again, we have already pointed out tons upon tons of reasons why that just wouldn't, and can't in some cases, happen. Your reasoning is completely illogical and based on absolutely no facts. Abortions <b>need</b> to be allowed for all the reasons we repeatedly posted and explained to you in great detail. Many of those reasons you completely ignored.

07-20-2011 at 5:00 AM

"This isn't about wishing and being hopeful and starry eyed, though. This is about realistic people knowing their limitations, " omg, for the last time, it's not "wishful thinking", Those Things Are Possible! and if they aren't ready for a child, Too Bad Learn.

07-20-2011 at 1:13 AM

<i>I believe that a fetus is a person from the minute the egg is fertilized and is concieved.</i><br /> At that point, the fetus is nothing more than a cluster of cells. Many pregnancies even self-terminate at this early of a stage, and the woman having the miscarriage doesn't even notice. Additionally, there are millions of sperm cells and millions of eggs that contain the same potential for life that are wasted in perfectly normal biological functions.<br /> While we can argue over the rights of a blastocyst (it's not yet even an embryo at the point you mentioned) all day and get nowhere, I think the focus of this discussion should be more shifted toward the rights of the <i>woman</i>, who is already a thinking human being with rights that can definitely be denied and infringed upon. For you to tell that woman, that <i>other</i> human being, what she can and cannot do with her own body and biological functions is ridiculous.<br /> <br /> <i>If you don't want to keep the child wait and have it and have it be adopted. there are plenty of good parents out there who would love to raise that child and give it a life that the mother could not supply to the child at that point.</i><br /> No, there's really not.<br /> <a href="http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/foster.cfm">As of 2009, there were over 420,000 children in foster care in the US alone.</a> There are no orphanages, per se, in the United States, but that fact is a little misleading. Just because there are no official orphanages does not mean that there aren't many, many children without permanent, loving homes.<br /> I had a foster sister for a few years. Before she came to us, she had bounced from home to home and usually moved at least twice a year. She was abused - once physically, once sexually - in two of her homes and never got over her feelings of abandonment and insecurity. She is still a wreck, at the age of nearly 30, and just recently got out of an abusive marriage because she <i>thought the abuse was deserved and her fault</i>. She told us she thought no one would want her, the way no one wanted her as a kid, and so she stayed with him...he beat her, threatened to kill her, drank all the time, killed her dog...and still, it took 4 people calling the police to convince her to finally leave. She has attempted to kill herself twice.<br /> <br /> Add to that the fact that <a href="http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics">child abuse and neglect are rampant in the US</a> (and likely other places too), and you can see how silly it is to bring even one more unwanted child into this mess. Not only are we grossly over-populated, as Hemp already pointed out, but children are at the bottom of the social ladder. Not only are current welfare and food/medical assistance programs not at all adequate to take care of them all, but the parents clearly are not properly equipped and prepared to do so, either...especially when you consider that those are just the cases <i>reported</i>.<br /> <br /> <i>most of the time, you believe what you are born into, if your parents are pro-choice you will likely be the same. I am pro-life partly because my whole family is and mostly because I believe every child should have and deserves a chance.</i><br /> Questioning your parents' beliefs is a part of maturing. Learning to think for yourself, even more so.<br /> <br /> <i>At what point does a fetus become a child? and at that time that you deem it is a person, why was it not a person two days ago or even a week?</i><br /> I believe this varies with each case of pregnancy. A fetus, to me, becomes a baby when it has a fully functioning nervous system, when it begins to be clear that it could function by itself, as a separate entity from its mother. Until then, it is literally a parasite. One that the mother may love and cherish and carry to term if she so chooses, but a parasite nonetheless, even by definition.<br /> <br /> What most pro-lifers don't understand is that I don't want all children aborted. Why would I want that? I just want the woman to be given the choice to do with her own body what she wants.<br /> I also don't want to see all abortions be legal and easy, though. Third trimester abortions are a sticky situation...and one in which, I think, the mother should have had enough time to make that decision. Unless there is a medical emergency for the mother that requires it, abortions after the fetus has mostly formed its nervous system, brain, etc. and can live without her body's support should not be taken lightly, if even allowed, legally, in most situations.<br /> <br /> <i>As soon as a baby is concieved, it is a life, and killing that fetus is murder, however indirect it may seem.</i><br /> There is a huge difference between a life and a potential life. Blastocysts are parasites, by definition, and have the <i>potential</i> to become a human child...but you must provide them with the nutrients, environment, etc. to do so from another human being's body. To do so without that human being's consent, or do assume she wishes to do so without ever asking, is ludicrous. The woman's rights trump the cellular clusters' every time, and she has a right to choose whether or not she wants a baby or even wants to <i>have</i> a baby. Having a baby is no small feat, and even adopting it out is expensive considering the cost of prenatal medical care...not to mention the delivery and after. That choice is not yours. That choice is the potential mother's alone.<br /> <br /> <i>My mother was the product of a cheating relationship, but her mother chose to have her be adopted by a great family, and she now has a wonderful life that she wouldn't have gotten to enjoy if her mother didn't think that she was a "person" at the abortion stage. i wouldn't be here, nor would my sister be here if not for that simple choice. so think about all the people that could come from that one aborted baby, all the different things it could have done, all the happy moments it could have shared with others, and tell me that person, or even my mom, should have been aborted.</i><br /> That's a red herring and goes both ways. What if Ted Bundy's mom had aborted? Jeffrey Dahmer's? Invoking Godwin's Law, here, but Hitler's?<br /> In short, that line of argument has little value in a proper debate.

07-19-2011 at 2:39 AM

Kommandant Geschäftsleiter Schäferhunde's Hundehütte , please go back and re-read this entire thread. We have covered everything you posted indepth and pointed out why it is not a logical reason to ban abortion. <br /> <br /> <i>" so think about all the people that could come from that one aborted baby, all the different things it could have done, all the happy moments it could have shared with others, and tell me that person, or even my mom, should have been aborted."</i><br /> <br /> No one thinks all babies who are mistakes should be aborted, we think that women should be given the <i>option</i> to have abortions if they chose to do so. Not everyone can care for a baby for one reason or another, and adoption really isn't an option since the adoption system is already insanely overwhelmed with unwanted children. Not to mention the world is already far, far too overpopulated. So much so that we are literally killing ourselves from lack of resources.

07-19-2011 at 2:29 AM

I believe that a fetus is a person from the minute the egg is fertilized and is concieved. If you don't want to keep the child wait and have it and have it be adopted. there are plenty of good parents out there who would love to raise that child and give it a life that the mother could not supply to the child at that point. most of the time, you believe what you are born into, if your parents are pro-choice you will likely be the same. I am pro-life partly because my whole family is and mostly because I believe every child should have and deserves a chance. At what point does a fetus become a child? and at that time that you deem it is a person, why was it not a person two days ago or even a week? As soon as a baby is concieved, it is a life, and killing that fetus is murder, however indirect it may seem. My mother was the product of a cheating relationship, but her mother chose to have her be adopted by a great family, and she now has a wonderful life that she wouldn't have gotten to enjoy if her mother didn't think that she was a "person" at the abortion stage. i wouldn't be here, nor would my sister be here if not for that simple choice. so think about all the people that could come from that one aborted baby, all the different things it could have done, all the happy moments it could have shared with others, and tell me that person, or even my mom, should have been aborted.

07-19-2011 at 12:40 AM

This isn't about wishing and being hopeful and starry eyed, though. This is about realistic people knowing their limitations, both monetarily and emotionally. Just because you can conceive does <i>not</i> mean you are at all prepared for a child. If someone is mature enough to realize this, admit it, and abort the fetus before it comes to term, they should not be penalized or looked down upon for that decision.

07-18-2011 at 9:20 PM

if they're ok with taking that risk, of having the abortion even though the understand that it might not turn out as dreaful as they fear, then that's that, but i just want assurance that they know exactly what they could be missing out on, if youre going to say the worst possible things that could happen, say the best things that could happen too.

07-18-2011 at 9:18 PM

it might not be realistic, but not every situation is going to turn out as dreadful as expected

07-18-2011 at 1:12 PM

It's great to be optimistic, but in situations like this it just isn't realistic. I am sorry you feel teamed up on, but when you have an opinion and bring it onto a debate board, and it isn't based on anything beyond "let's hope and wish!" People are going to call you out on why it's wrong and that's what everyone here has done, they even gave facts to back their arguments. It just isn't realistic, nor safe, to not allow abortion based on what you have brought up.<br /> <br /> <i>"but i'd like to think that what you went through made you stronger and wiser and who you are today. are you really saying that all that you have no and all the joys you have and will have and all your accomplishments weren't worth what you went through? and if so, doesn't that mean youre a fighter too?"</i><br /> <br /> No, it made me a <b>worse</b> person, by far. I refuse to go into detail about the various problems I have because of my past, but I assure you they are abundant and cause me to have far more issues than I otherwise should have. It didn't make me a "fighter" by any means.

07-18-2011 at 4:00 AM

You know why im repeating myself hempdog??? because ive made sure that im at the very least aware that how bad it might be but no one including you has tried to acknowledge the good possibilities. we're throwing around whatifs, the future has no fact other than it could be this or this. i may think that everything might work out, because there's Always a chance it will and i think good is greater than bad. and yes that's annoyling optimistic of me but it's stressful because i feel teamed up on, no one in the entire thread was/is on my side at all. it's like the bad risks arent worth it even though there are good possibilities. because the baby that was terminated, could have been the human who discourvered the cure for cancer for all we know. it could also be the next hitler. we don't know, and it shouldn't be in our hands yes it should be the mothers choice, but it's a human, who might want to fight, who has rights and Will think and feel in less than a year, it's not like Fetus breed all it's own, it's more like a stage than a thing.<br /> <br /> I am Sorry for what you've been through, but i know you don't need my sympathy im just trying to let you know im Trying to be sensative and i know you think im just ignorant for not knowing about how bad it can get, but i'd like to think that what you went through made you stronger and wiser and who you are today. are you really saying that all that you have no and all the joys you have and will have and all your accomplishments weren't worth what you went through? and if so, doesn't that mean youre a fighter too?

07-16-2011 at 1:31 PM

<i>"neither us nor the parents can just be like "oh im sure they don't want to live through abuse"</i><br /> <br /> As a child who was both an accident and brutally abused, yes, I can say for a fact that I would have rather been aborted than lived through some of the horrors I had to go through. I still have scars, both mentally and physically, from what I had to go through and to be honest, I will probably never fully recover from them. Dooming a child to a life like that is just downright horrible, irresponsible, and <i>cruel</i>.<br /> <br /> <i>"what if they don't care if they don't have loving parents and they want to live anyway????</i><br /> <br /> This argument is invalid. If it was aborted it couldn't have wanted to live because it wouldn't have been able to think in the first place.<br /> <br /> <i>"and all i ask is that they try and do they're best because they never know when they might hit a break and i actually do believe in the helping programs because there's hundreds of them."</i><br /> <br /> The best isn't always good enough, no matter how much you wish upon a star. There are thousands of children who already need medical care and food, but they arn't getting it because their parents can't afford it. As for the helping programs; It shouldn't be everyone elses burden to pay for because someone else decided to have a kid. Not to mention this creates a whole new problem of people who intentionally pop out babies just so they don't have to take care of themselves or the kids. There are about 50,311,528 babies aborted since 1973, if all those unwanted babies had to be put on helping programs, the funds for them would run out extremely fast and there would be no help at all. <br /> <br /> <i>"why should they get something against they're will???<br /> because its not about them! it's about the child, i think the child has rights too."</i><br /> <br /> It's about a baby that doesn't exist? You mean the fetus residing in the womans womb, taking her nutrients and living off of her? What about what could happen to the woman during birth and even after it's born? It sure takes up the parents time, money, and other resources, so yes, it is about them too. Two, or even one, people should not have their entire lives destroyed because they chose to be intimate.<br /> <br /> <i>"and as for my religious beleifs, they support my arguement as all. you can use whatever you believe to support whatever you want. it might not be solid, but i put it out there and so can you all the same."</i><br /> <br /> Your religious beliefs do not hold any ground on whether or not abortion should be allowed. Again, not everyone is christian so this does not apply here. There is seperation of church and state for a reason and this is exactly it. We are dicussing facts on this, not saying "oh I believe in some magical nonexistant thing! So therefore this is why we should not allow it!" (Sorry I do not mean to be insulting here, but that is essentially how it sounds to people who are not christian.) Please, stop bringing religion into this, it isn't a valid argument and I believe others have asked you to stop this as well.<br /> <br /> <i>"and frankly im just repeating myself, please go back and read the seven pages because i've been over ALL of this TWICE before so i'll check back and if there's something new to be said i'll gladly take it on."</i><br /> <br /> You're right, you are repeating yourself because you are not bringing any facts nor logical arguments and people keep pointing out why. You are doing nothing but wishful thinking that everything will "just be okay!" when in reality things are NOT going to be that way.

07-16-2011 at 8:03 AM

as for the abuse:<br /> neither us nor the parents can just be like "oh im sure they don't want to live through abuse" no, that child has a right to live, and we don't know whether or not he or she will want it and thats not for us to say. what if a nonmaternal type of couple got an abortion, but what if they had the baby, and it wants to live anyway, even though it doesn't have very good parents? i say it's a risk worth taking. there's always help available once out of the house and even in the house, and no it's not easy but it makes the children stronger and more independent. what if they don't care if they don't have loving parents and they want to live anyway????<br /> <br /> as for money?<br /> and all i ask is that they try and do they're best because they never know when they might hit a break and i actually do believe in the helping programs because there's hundreds of them<br /> <br /> why should they get something against they're will???<br /> because its not about them! it's about the child, i think the child has rights too.<br /> <br /> and frankly im just repeating myself, please go back and read the seven pages because i've been over ALL of this TWICE before so i'll check back and if there's something new to be said i'll gladly take it on.<br /> <br /> and as for my religious beleifs, they support my arguement as all. you can use whatever you believe to support whatever you want. it might not be solid, but i put it out there and so can you all the same.

07-15-2011 at 3:58 AM

<i>you believe that it's ridiculous to take care of a child, i say it's a good lesson. the parent obviously will benefit from the need to grow up in the situation.</i><br /> Having children isn't a magical "grow up" button. I am far more mature than either of my parents are, and they - obviously - had children approximately 25 years ago. There are many immature parents out there, and that should be obvious when you consider the amount of children in foster care and/or orphanages. Add to that the vast number of people who take poor care of their kids - either through neglect or outright abuse - and you're very possibly dooming that child to at least ~18 years of life of misery and mistreatment.<br /> <br /> Plus, as Hemp said, most people who accidentally conceive are in no financial position to care for their child. Considering how overloaded our current welfare and food assistance programs are, that family could very well go hungry, not have money for proper medical care, clothing, diapers...child-raising is expensive, and money isn't something that just magically poofs into your wallet when you need to feed your 2 year old...especially if you had to abandon your college career to care for the kid and didn't complete any sort of degree. The job market isn't a compassionate place for a mother who needs time home with her child(ren) and lacks an "education."<br /> <br /> <i>i don't want to live in a world where we can chose whether or not we live with the results.</i><br /> I don't want to live in a world where children can't find homes because they're unwanted by their biological parents. Or one in which parents harbor a grudge against their children that they think is hidden but that often comes out in nasty ways. Or one in which children go hungry, go without medical care, and go without proper education.<br /> I would rather a woman be given a choice than a child be brought into the world as a burden. Those situations rarely turn out well for the child in question.<br /> <br /> <i>i'd rather she learn to be a mother and live with her choices.</i><br /> What if she didn't want children? Is that <i>your</i> decision to make or hers? I don't think you have a say in the matter unless it's your uterus we're talking about. Period.<br /> <br /> <i>it's my belief that life is God's precious gift and he gives it to those who need it. i beleive it's obviously apart of God's plan for her to become a mother at that time and place. variables aren't everything, you shouldn't just deny the gift of life because you're not happy with the situation and the variables.</i><br /> What about in situations of assault andwhoa there, then? If a woman is "blessed" enough to conceive, shouldn't she thank God for that gift and carry the fetus to term? Shouldn't this sort of "logic" apply in all situations?<br /> If not, why? It's hypocritical to have it any other way.<br /> <br /> Also, consider that many people simply, again, <i>do not have the resources or the mental capacity to properly rear a child</i>. <br /> <br /> (To clarify for this next little bit...I am biologically female.)<br /> Myself, I know I would not make a good parent. I have too many mental hangups and far too little patience. I would snap at, yell at, and potentially even harm a child left in my care. I know these things about myself, and therefore I will never have children. If, somehow, all the efforts I've taken to prevent it failed and I became pregnant, you bet your boots I'd be the first in line to get that abortion. I'm in no way an appropriate parent, and frankly I think giving birth would do serious damage to my already not-that-stable psyche. It's not a matter of someone else's vague ethical objections; it's a matter of <i>my life, my body, and my rights</i>. Who are you to say I (and my hypothetical fetus) should "live with" the choice I've made to have consensual sexual relations with my partner if something goes awry and I somehow conceive? You have no idea what my situation is, what the circumstances were surrounding the relationship/pregnancy, nor my current state of mental and/or physical health. You have <i>no</i> say in this, regardless of your religious objections.<br /> <br /> <i>i believe it's unfair to simpley just not accept the results of our actions. i believe God knows what He's doing.</i><br /> Tell that to my foster sister, who couldn't find a home until she was 16 and bounced from state orphanage to state orphanage from the time she was 6. She still has major abandonment issues and struggles with depression.<br /> Tell that to my mother, who was abused in too many ways to count simply because there were too many children in her family and she had nowhere else to go. She made the best of an awful situation, but I was still raised in a home that was riddled with instability, many different drugs, and various physical and mental abuses as a direct result of the issues she still fights with on a nightly basis.<br /> <br /> If God in fact exists - which I don't believe, but that's another topic - then he's not looking out for all of us equally apparently. Bad things happen to good people, and that includes perfectly innocent children and people far too young to be having said children. Saying "oh well, learn to be a mom!" doesn't help <i>those</i> people.

07-15-2011 at 1:01 AM

<i>"you believe that it's ridiculous to take care of a child, i say it's a good lesson."</i><br /> <br /> What about people who can't care for their kids financially? What about people who have a serious future that will be destroyed because they no longer have the time to devote to pursuing it? What about people who just downright refuse to care for the child once it's born and neglect it? What about the children who will be dumped into the foster care system where they will most likely never know what a family or love is? You are saying that that is better than allowing a fetus, something that is literally a parasite and cannot think nor feel, to be terminated? <br /><br /> <i>"the parent obviously will benefit from the need to grow up in the situation."</i><br><br>What about people who KNOW they will be an abusive parent and hurt, possibly even kill, their child? You are saying it's better for a person to be forced into something, and possibly end up in jail or prison because of it, than to have a fetus (again something that cannot think or feel) terminated?<br /> <br /> <i>"it's my belief that life is God's precious gift and he gives it to those who need it. i beleive it's obviously apart of God's plan for her to become a mother at that time and place."</i><br /> <br /> God doesn't really have a place in this argument. Not everyone is christian, so not everyone believes the same as you do about that. Are you saying everyone should be forced to believe in what "god's plan" is even if they don't believe in god?<br /> <br /> <i>"i believe it's unfair to simpley just not accept the results of our actions."</i><br /> <br /> Accidents happen, even when you double up on protection. Sex is something that people use to express love with someone else (not always, but a lot of the time.) People arn't always going too, and sometimes don't ever, want kids for one reason or another. Why should they be forced to do something against their will? Especially something that is so life changing as this, and most of the time not in a good way? A womans body is hers and hers alone, she should have the right whether or not she wants to allow it to be used by anyone or anything.

07-14-2011 at 9:39 PM

you believe that it's ridiculous to take care of a child, i say it's a good lesson. the parent obviously will benefit from the need to grow up in the situation. in most cases. i don't want to live in a world where we can chose whether or not we live with the results. i'd rather she learn to be a mother and live with her choices. it's my belief that life is God's precious gift and he gives it to those who need it. i beleive it's obviously apart of God's plan for her to become a mother at that time and place. variables aren't everything, you shouldn't just deny the gift of life because you're not happy with the situation and the variables. i believe it's unfair to simpley just not accept the results of our actions. i believe God knows what He's doing.

07-13-2011 at 9:52 PM

Many unwanted and/or unexpected pregnancies occur because of a lack of proper sex education in either the home or school environment. These people are technically having unprotected sex, and they're certainly not being forced into it, however a lack of knowledge means that many who aren't ready for children <i>do</i> get pregnant.<br /> <br /> I've never understood placing the blame only on the person who managed to conceive. How about the schools that person attended while growing up? Does that blame shift with age? Say that person was only 14. <br /> When I was 14, I'd had very little sex education past "abstinence is best and if you have sex you deserve what happens to you because you were BAD." I didn't really even receive anything better than that, either, until I was in my senior year of high school. There were at least 8 teen mothers in my graduating class, and there were only ~150 people total...that blame does not fall only on those girls. They could have (and should have) educated themselves on the matter, but at the age of 16, people do a lot of really irresponsible things. That doesn't mean you should have to essentially drop your life plans to take care of a child that you no doubt have no proper way of raising at that age and time in your life anyway. Good luck getting a job that will allow you to support a child without assistance in today's economy, not to mention college costs, medical care should it become sick, etc. Babies are expensive, and expecting every teenager who had a whoopsie and forgot their (censored word: contraceptive device!)s to just "own up" and deal with it is ridiculous.<br /> <br /> Besides...if you don't know enough to not get accidentally pregnant, you probably don't know enough to take care of and properly rear a child.

07-13-2011 at 1:01 AM

I'm in the middle. But if you have sex without protection I think you should not get a abortion because you put it on yourself. But if yourwhoa thered or sexully abused and you get pregnet It would not be your falt. Like I siad I'm in the middle.